Ford permanent codes & Ca emission testing
I dont do emission testing, but Iam trying to help my client out and get some clarity. Customer had a code of P144C for about 5 months before coming to me. I repaired the problem, and the car was driven nearly 3,000 miles, with no current codes and all monitors are clear, however a permanent P144C is still present. FSM states permanent should be considered “a monitor that is incomplete”
He went to get it smogged, and they wouldnt test it because the permanent code showed up.
On the CA website it says that the state will give a limit of 15 warm up cycles and 200 miles. This is to “prevent undue inconvenience to motorists who are trying to comply with the program but are having trouble getting specific monitors to run to completion.”
Is this a matter of finding a better shop? Seems they plug in a code reader, see the permanent code, and push him on his way. They are not looking at any scan data that would show cycles since I did my repairs.
It sounds like he just needs to get the vehicle tested. PDTCs are a new headache for smog shops and most do not understand them.
You are correct about the warm up cycles and miles. The car should be tested as received and not pre-checked. Find a different smog shop!.
I’ve dealt with this before. If you’ve done the warm up cycles and driven the mileage it will pass smog. sounds like the shop is trying to be nice and check monitors/permanent codes beforehand (that’s actually a no-no). Have them check the “drive cycles since dtc set” PID if they’re really that worried about it. good luck!
All responders have given you good information, Stephen, but just in case….I'm a California smog instructor and I confirm, the shop is wrong; the permanent code should not cause it to fail after 200 miles. I'm guessing you found the EVAP purge/check valve/ejector assembly faulty and replaced it appropriately. That code will set very quickly when there is pressure in the fuel tank because of a…
Thanks, yes that ejector purge assembly was the issue, and once replaced, no more codes
Hi Stephn, it sounds like you need a better shop. As long as mile since coded cleared and warm cycle are above 15 and 200 miles, the vehicle should pass the inspection.
Doesn’t it have to be 200 miles since the first Smog test failure? Sounds like the vehicle was never tested.
I think you may be correct, Jamey, now that I think of it, although the 15 starts since code clear has to come from the vehicle's PCM so maybe the 200 miles comes from there too. In any case, I'm betting by the time the guy gets it in for the smog, the permanent code will be gone.
Nope, both "Number of warm-ups since DTCs cleared" (PID $30) and “Distance traveled since DTCs cleared” (PID $31) come from the ECM Service (Mode) $01.
Bob - Do car companies have a software template designed jointly with EPA and CARB for permanent codes or does the government just give them the rules ? Will we ever see OBD 3 or will electric cars kill that ? Lastly what will smog shops do if we switch to electric !
Hi Justin, Yes, the "template" is found in the SAE International standard J2012, which is referenced in the CARB Malfunction and Diagnostic System Requirements Regulations - AKA OBD-II regulations. OBD 3 has never existed, nor will it ever exist. I do not know where that term came from, but it is completely bogus. A short history lesson. Inside of the OBD-II regs, CARB defines the set of data…
Thanks Steve. Glad to see that you are still out there doing your thing, Man! Keep up the good work…
Bob What type of schooling is required to land that job ? Do you agree with right to repair ? Feel like I have to agree with Tesla for not wanting independents working on such technology without serious standards in place .
Hi Justin, Which job are you referring to? I was part of the team that wrote the original R2R, so, yeah, I pretty much agree… :-) Cheers, Bob
Flashing the ECM with the latest software or over flashing it with the same software version will “usually” erase all DTC's including the permanent. Take it to another smog shop. Plugging in a code reader is not a smog inspection. The BAR OIS system makes the determination if a vehicle passes from its own online database. The database will even ignore some DTC faults and monitor checks on some…
looks like the other shop might too worry about their testing score and not willing to test it. If all monitors ready or except evap, more then 15 warm up cycles and ran more 200 miles since dtc clear It will pass by the bar ois.
Yep, one more vote for “find a different shop.” I'm pretty sure that the OIS algo checks the warmups and miles and will pass… Cheers, Bob
Vehicle needs to be tested and not just code read in the drive. (Edited for previous boneheaded response)
The referee will not take him without a failed smog. He apparently hasn't had it inspected and it is certainly in a testable condition. The presence of a permanent code in no way prevents a vehicle from being tested, and if indeed the 200 miles and 15 warmup cycles comes out of the vehicle's Mode 9 information, it will no doubt pass the test. He shouldn't need assistance from the referee.
This vehicle does NOT need to go to the referee. I don’t know you Sean, but if you are a smog technician you need to brush up on the Smog Inspection manual. I get people coming in almost every week spouting non sense like this. This is not a “grey area” Licensed smog inspectors should know what to do with this vehicle. Turning it away before even testing because it has codes, permanent or active…
oh Crap you guys (Philip and Jamey) are absolutely right. I misread that post. thanks for calling me out on that!
Hi Sean, I didn't have anything to add other than it's refreshing to see someone admit to a mistake and own it. Thank you.
Jamey - I have agree with you. During the last part of my career, investigating I/M issues and working with the state agencies involved (not just CA), it is clear that if you are an independent shop doing I/M, you need to continually familiarize yourself with your state inspection manual. I spent almost as much time training inspectors as I did working out I/M issues…
Some of the answers are correct, some techs need to read up on these codes. 15 warm up cycles (At least a 40 degree difference from start up to fuel control) and 200 miles. The code may still be stored as a permanent code but will be ignored while testing is done.
Most the scan tool should able to read how many warm up cycles and miles after DTC clear. Each warm up cycle is 40 degrees difference from starts and over 160 degrees.
I'm reaching out to the customer to enquire emission test results