1998 Toyota Four runner running full rich

Paul Mechanic Illinois Posted   Latest   Edited  
Resolved
Driveability
Emissions
1998 Toyota 4Runner Limited 3.4L (N 5VZ-FE) 4-spd (A340E) — JT3HN87R1W9012450
P0172 — System Too Rich Bank 1
Rich At All Loads

I'm the fourth shop on this if were counting the customer. Over all correction is -39% usually always, O2s 880mV to 910mV both pre and post. Customer has replaced injectors from internet source claiming genuine Toyotas. Other shops have replaced FPR claiming pressure was over 20 psi high. Subsequently, I have found no vac source at FPR given customer has A/M cold air induction with questionable vacuum fittings, but connecting vac source to regulator does not shift fuel trims at all ( I think pcm is at its limit at 39%, but when I look at Total fuel trim on Toyota side is reads 1.01?). I have plumbed in a test port for fuel pressure and found fuel pressure to be in spec (using transducer) with and without vac applied to FPR, but discovered FPR does not hold rail pressure and bleeds down to zero in under 20 seconds. No leak down detected on injector side of test point. Maf seems to be ok at 3.6 GPS@700 RPM and unplugging sets vehicle in a whole new strategy as it loses IAT- injector pulse increases. Verified O2s are reporting correctly via scope and look to be correct part numbers (Denso) and style according to my research. Injector base time is usually hanging around 2.3 mS and scoping injector current and measuring agrees with scanner reporting along with me commanding -12 % and +25 with scanner. Checked engine Vac with both gauge and transducer and its a rock solid 22"Hg. In cylinder compression shows same and 175 psi cranking(spec) and when matched up with relative starter current shows it is the lowest in the group(all the others are even which I attribute to possibly the hose length and fitting being only hand tight. Found plug (plugs, coils and wires have been replaced) pulled is of the single ground strap variety contradicting the label on the timing cover requiring twin ground electrodes, and seemed not tight, but wouldn't be cause of rich condition. Cannot find valve timing specs anywhere and don't think the investment for short term Toyota SI is worth it as I'm measuring EVO at approx. 38 degrees before BDC. ( I only did the single cylinder as the relative compression and steady vac, smooth idle suggests the others should prove out the same. This vehicle does not have VVT, nor an EGR system. Purge valve is not leaking, but it is capped off anyway (by me for testing purposes). engine will sputter and pop if revved from idle, then repeated attempts seem more successful as excess fuel may have been cleared? He was told bad pcm, but I don't think so as pcm responds to vac leak and starts correcting. I have no equipment to verify flow rate of injectors and short of someone knowing that valve timing may be a bit retarded or some fuel concoction that I can't detect, I suspected injectors while may be Toyotas, may not be for this engine.

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Matt Engineer
California
Matt
 

If the Aftermarket cold air induction was not sized correctly, and/or developed correctly in conjunction with the MAF sensor and intake tube Inside Diameter, etc. it can cause lean/rich problems. If available, I would start by putting the stock intake system & stock air filter & stock air-box back on, and see if that fixes it, and/or significantly changes/improves anything.

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Richard Instructor
Florida
Richard
 

I second this. The moment I read “aftermarket cold air” I thought - there is your problem. see if you can get the stock intake on And go from there.

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

I brought that up as soon as customer dropped it off. He states this was on vehicle before problems developed. He said he was looking to restore it prior to issue.

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Jesse Engineer
Missouri
Jesse
   

Also make sure MAF is installed in the correct direction. Had a guy install his own “ebay” CAI. ran terrible after that. Looked at the MAF the connection to the CAI. Looked okay but there was no arrow indicating flow direction. Got the factory air box out to determine correct mounting. MAF was installed backwards. Turned it around the right direction. Ran much better but the computer had already…

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Richard Technician
New York
Richard
 

Unplug maf and see if tables are good enough to run speed density check ft from there

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

Not familiar with that check, but I don't believe this engine has a map sensor.

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Matt Engineer
California
Matt
 

I forgot to mention: Make sure the MAF is clean (and ideally the OEM part). Many times aftermarket intake systems use an oiled air filter, and sometimes the oil travels onto the MAF wire/bulb and causes the MAF to give skewed data to the ECM. This especially occurs when the aftermarket air filter has been over-oiled. Nowadays the dry filters have eliminated most of these “oiled MAF” problems…

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Timothy Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Timothy
 

Matt: the dirty MAF would result in a lean condition NOT a rich condition, as the dirty wire would not ‘read’ all the incoming air. Cleaning a MAF for this issue would be invalid procedure.

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Glenn Owner/Technician
Texas
Glenn
 

Hello Paul. Is this a resurrection project by the owner? If so, question the fuel quality. Old rancid fuel will not burn correctly and adding new fuel will not renew the old fuel. If it is a steel tank, there will be fine silt rust creating issues in the entire fuel system, I am in agreement that the injectors are possibly not the correct ones for this application. Did the owner change them…

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

If you look at running compression capture- no back pressure indicated. Verified regulator does indeed drop pressure 10psi with vacuum, however, in it's current setup, the vacuum is being sourced from the cold air intake with no measurable vacuum at it's port. I have vacuum supplied while diagnosing, but my trims are still maxed out. I would think sediment migrating into injectors would cause…

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Timothy Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Timothy
 

Many old Toyotas had no vacuum to the regulator. It was routed to the intake before the throttle plate. It's only purpose, is for safety if the regulator diaphragm fails. The same style is used on other models that do have vacuum, but these early ones, as a rule of thumb, did not. A check of the vacuum diagram on the hood decal might show it. Vacuum would decrease the pressure, and that might…

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

You are correct(I'm sure that never gets old) :) However, applying full vacuum does drop pressure by 10 psi as it should, but had no effect on trims/ O2s. I pulled injector from donor and numbers match his old ones and the ones he installed. At the risk of repeating myself, I'm sure I've mentioned that more than once to individual replies as I'm trying to keep up with them as they come in.

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Andre Diagnostician
District of Columbia
Andre
 

I might try to do a volumetric efficiency test this will give you a look at how well the engine breathes . the mass air reading at full throttle along with fuel trim readings should give you a better idea of what is going on. I also would try a total pcm reset . How does it drive is it blowing black smoke. Is it going into closed loop Check temperature sensor readings .

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

I won't drive this one. Lifted, knobby tires and power steering is out.

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Dan Owner/Technician
Texas
Dan
 

… Change the engine OIL… I have seen oil with so much gasoline in it that the engine would START and RUN with the fuel pump disconnected at the 4 wire tank connector (ZERO showin' on the rail) and the injectors ALL disconnected .. pulling the PCV from the VC would shut it down as if you switched off the KEY and roar back to life if it was reinserted in the VC before it stalled out all the way…

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Glenn Owner/Technician
Texas
Glenn
 

Hi Dan, This sounds like …ing truck project to me at this point. Got to love them… LOL😂😂🤣🤣

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

I wiffed it when it came in and it's clean. No fuel odor., Keep those ideas coming :)

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Ray Diagnostician
Ontario
Ray
 

You didn't mention the ECT, the THW should be .2v to 1.0v The second photo is the TPS resistance chart. HTH

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

TPS was also replaced by another shop, but admittedly,I did not scrutinize it. ECT and IAT pids look accurate. Here is a shot when I disconnected line from purge valve(supply side) and let it adapt. I noticed the injector pulse broke under the 2 mS level.

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Richard Technician
New York
Richard
 

That injector time seems low. I would be thinking his internet sourced injectors are flowing to much fuel, so the ECM is trying to trim it back by shortening the on time duration. Did they replace them to repair this issue or another issue this vehicle had. Maybe they still have the old ones and you could swap them back in. Or get a used set cheaply.

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

I believe it was to address this issue.

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Louis Technician
California
Louis
 

Hey Paul, noticed that your MAF readings are at 2.73 G/S at 1100 RPM in this capture and earlier capture shows 3.72 G/S at 700 RPM ? Louis N.

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Geoff Diagnostician
Hawaii
Geoff
 

I saw that too, but I think the MAF is low because he has the purge line wide-open.

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

Geoff is correct

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

Geoff is correct on what I was doing to try an verify PCM responds appropriately.

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Brian Owner/Technician
British Columbia
Brian
 

I would seriously look at the injectors if a MAF doesn't fix it. Takes a long time for the Fuel trim to start to show correction unless you do a full memory clear ( battery disconnect) You will have to drive it unfortunately. It should hold also some residual pressure in the system so something is leaking down. Fuel pump check valve, FPR or the injectors. FPR doesn't get full engine vacuum on…

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

Well, when I induced the vacuum leak at purge source, corrections were fairly instantaneous. Son of a friend of my sister's.

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Glenn Owner/Technician
Texas
Glenn
 

Hello Paul, Are you saying it is a purge problem or you are just introducing a vacuum leak to lean the mixture so it will run better? Please clarify.

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

Inducing leak to verify PCM recognizes/responds appropriately.

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Andre Diagnostician
District of Columbia
Andre
 

Have you tried disconnecting the purge hose from valve canister side a soaked canister can give you rich condition some Toyotas start to purge Just after start up. Are the original injectors available. You may not want to but a VE test may be needed

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

VE may be of value, but this thing is lifted and I can feel every tread as I roll it into shop and tires show front end is not where it should be. I did do reverse brake torque in lot and load pid went to 83% and rear tire broke free. Not sure if that was torque or weak brakes?

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Geoff Diagnostician
Hawaii
Geoff
 

Seeing that capture with the purge line open---→ I like the fuel soaked canister idea. A green Mastertech? Bosch ruins everything….LOL

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

I've had one of these since they came out on the MAC trucks,'93 I think. It was always cheaper to buy a newer used one then to update through vetronix then, Bosch now. I think I'm sitting on five. Still my go to tool for monitor setting for emissions, plus I'm running the factory Toyota software with it which was the dealer tool at the time.

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Geoff Diagnostician
Hawaii
Geoff
 

I have the full Vetronix MTS3100 set but every once in a while the unit just reboots in the middle of making menu selections, so I picked-up an extra main unit...it says "Diagnostic Tester-S" and is black instead of grey, and has the factory Toyota card. Wow, FIVE of them?!? You missed your chance to unload a few about five or six years ago, they have really dropped in value on eBay since then…

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Chris Owner/Technician
California
Chris
 

The FPR on that had a vent hose not a vacuum hose and the MAF voltage seems high.

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

You are correct according to vacuum hose routing on emission label on hood, but hood is from 2002. I wasn't aware I supplied MAF voltage-what/where did you see it?

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Chris Owner/Technician
California
Chris
 

In the scan data capture 3.6 g/s @ 700 rpm, check the tailpipe emissions is it actually running that rich?

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

No gas analyzer but both, O2s agree and I can make them go lean by introducing a vacuum leak

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Chris Owner/Technician
California
Chris
 

Did u try to disable purge, or check for fuel in the oil. Let the pcv breath fresh air and watch trims

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

Purge was blocked and source of vacuum leak for validating PCM recognizes and corrects trims

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Robert Diagnostician
California
Robert
 

Try and get the numbers off the injectors and see if they fit that engine. Dr. Injector that we use locally has looked up injector numbers to verify if they are correct for us in the past. I have the phone number at work if you need it.

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

Thanks, numbers match his originals to the ones he installed and the one I pulled from a donor.

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Robert Diagnostician
Florida
Robert
 

Any time i see trims that far negative the very first thing i check is the fuel sample for Ethanol and fuel pressure while i am there. With gas prices soaring ethanol is becoming very tempting at least in these parts. Thought i would throw this out there as it hasn't been suggested yet. This is also something that can fly under the radar deep into a diagnosis. In fact when you start going…

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

I believe high ethanol content causes lean conditions as there is not as much energy(BTUs) compared to gasoline for same amount of volume. I always check when I can't readily identify causes for lean codes. Premium grade fuel will also cause lean if vehicle is not specified to use it. I'll check anyway-maybe something has changed-thanks for the suggestion.

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Timothy Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Timothy
   

As Paul responded, E85 would cause the engine to be very lean, on a non-flex vehicle, unless there has been some magic happening in the PCM. 4Runners have never been flex fuel for this engine family, so your response is invalid for the current scenario. However, the octane rating will have zero effect on trim. Premium or not, the trims won't change much if at all.

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

That's what I thought until I sold a customer one my cars that I drove for five years with never a cel lit. She came back a week later with 171 sand 174 stored. Swapped with known good MAF, no change in trims (Ford product). As asked her what she was filling it with and she responded nothing's to good for her baby. Premium. I have read Ford doesn't want anything over 89 octane unless it's…

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Timothy Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Timothy
 

Again, octane will NOT affect trims. There are other additives put into premium that are not in the lower octane fuels (added detergents for example), but there is nothing inherent in premium fuel that would ‘repair’ a lean code. Whatever you had going on with that Ford, was not related to the fuel. E85 would cause the issue, but Ford lean codes are so common that there is almost always…

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

This was early 2000's, so no E85 yet. I'm just going by my own theory as to what I witnessed as I serviced vehicle regularly. I have a supercharged redline that asks for premium, but I rarely use it as I'm more into mileage than performance. This thing fell into my lap 12 years ago with 25k and a blown motor. Stuck another engine in it with a clutch not knowing what I was going to do with it and…

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

Less then 10%

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul Update
 

I have sourced a used intake system with MAF and filter and installing it has not affected trims whatsoever. Spoke with customer, he changed injectors in an attempt to correct issue with no improvement. Matched his numbers against the one donor I took air box from and they match(injector) . However, he stated he only paid $100 for the set, but again, he only changed them because of current…

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Brian Owner/Technician
British Columbia
Brian
 

Has any one been under the valve covers. The exhaust cams are gear driven off the Intakes. Easy to get them a tooth out, No sensors or any thing. Intakes are belt driven. High mileage on the belt they would skip a tooth once in a while especially if the truck rolled the engine back wards a bit when parked. If you go there might want to check Valve clearance, might be tight enough to be on the…

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

That's why I did in cylinder testing-to get an idea of valve timing events, but I can't find and timing specs in either of my SI, alldata/mod. Engine idles smooth and over 22" of vacuum.

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Glenn Owner/Technician
Texas
Glenn
 

Hello Paul, Why does 22" of vacuum seem too High to me? What is your altitude for your area of the country… around 600Ft avg.? I had to reference the following article to clarify this this myself. This may also help others out there: Make Your Shop's Phone A Welcome Mat | MOTOR With this said, your vacuum shows that your engine is mechanically very sound so I think valves and timing can be…

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

I'm about 650ft in elevation,I normally see vacuum around 19-20"on most engines, but usually they're here for drivability issues and I'm concentrating on any anomalies in vacuum patterns and not the amount. I concur about engine soundness. I have not replaced plugs and only removed the one which I didn't feel was quite thought enough and noticed the single ground electrode while the label for…

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Stephen Technician
Tennessee
Stephen
 

I’m wondering,,, it sputters and pops when revved off idle,, that is a classic LEAN symptom. Rich engines will just kind of bog and slowly build RPM when revved off idle. Have you tried forcing it to open loop, then scope the front O2 sensor to see what it’s doing. What color are the plugs? What does the secondary burn line look like?

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

Not great with interpreting secondary - my third scope shot, file is also included, is of my revving with secondary and vacuum reading. As vacuum decays as I try to rev it, you can an increase in pressure, like it's popping into intake. Subsequently, it will rev fine with no hiccups if I do this repeatedly after getting through the first one, like it's got to be cleared of excess fuel from…

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Stephen Technician
Tennessee
Stephen
 

The secondary pattern is erratic. Where/how was the scope connected to the secondary. I’m wondering if the truck is not rich from fuel mismanagement but appears rich because of a high number of ignition misfires. And is actually lean because of the ECM trying to cure the rich condition.

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

It's wrapped around the lead just ahead of the plug. Not getting any misfire counts on scanner, but haven't looked this see if any count up while revving.

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Ray Diagnostician
Ontario
Ray
 

DIS secondary patterns can look erratic, especially when doing snap throttles. Scope the primary coil winding voltages on 4 coils at the same time and do a steady 1500 rpm brake torque to see what the spark plug burn voltages are doing.

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Timothy Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Timothy
 

From what I can see of the coil set-up, there are only two coils, and the ICMs are internal to them, which would make the scoping of primary impossible. Might be able to scope amperage, but that won't tell you much about this issue. Maybe a ‘paddle’ type inductive pick-up, but that would be very messy as far as interpretation goes.

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Ray Diagnostician
Ontario
Ray
 

There are 3 COPs and with 3 scope leads on each COP primary coil winding, on the ground sides, should show the spark plug burn voltages. The last capture is from a 2000 Jeep 4.0 and I'm scoping the 3 coil pack primary coil winding voltages and each coil pack fires 2 spark plugs.

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Timothy Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Timothy
 

Perfectly aware of how to do it. Done many. I was looking at the wrong year diagram, my bad. It did not show what the correct one did.

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Jasen Mechanic
Washington
Jasen
 

May have already been said, bank 1 5vzfe is the side you can get to the injectors Without removing the manifold etc. i have seen a lot of counterfeit parts that perfectly match fit and finish of oe injectors. Bench testing them reveals poor atomization at the tip and a much higher volume… DIY gone wrong? 20 $ a piece injectors from ebay are tempting to the would be home mechanic.

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

I agree, he paid $100 for all six, but again, it was an attempt to repair this same issue I'm dealing with. I told him though, all six injectors just didn't start flooding cylinders at once. To be clear exhaust does not smell overly rich. Like it's on the cusp of getting there, but PCM is just short of control of getting it to drop below 850mV. Does not code immediately, nor am I waiting, just…

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul Update
   

I just realized what a bone head I am-while I'm doubting this is a PCM issue, should have grabbed the one from today's donor. I can't keep but feel there is some other input I'm not considering that may be cause. Customer also told me other shop did try another new MAF and swapped original back in when that didn't fix it. I thought I mentioned that the PS is out due to leak and I believed I…

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Geoff Diagnostician
Hawaii
Geoff
 

If you know it has no immo, I would not hesitate to swap an ECM on that, if there was an extra handy.

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Timothy Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Timothy
 

I wouldn't hesitate to swap it as well, but the fact that he only paid 100 for the set if injectors is a big red flag to me, as in counterfeit. Seen it many times, especially as good injectors are over 100/injector!

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Richard Technician
New York
Richard
 

I agree with Timothy about the 100 dollars for a full set of injectors. I would try a used set from the scrapyard if all else fails.

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul Update
 

Tried used PCM with same results. I then induced unmetered air before throttle blade and dropped MAF reading and still rich although short term did drop. I am of the same opinion at this point as other have suggested- those Internet injectors are most likely the main source of extreme richness. The customer replaced them in an effort to cure the P0172, but I'm pretty sure he didn't know how…

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Timothy Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Timothy
 

I have to disagree with the re-install idea…they obviously had an issue with those as well. You have appeared to remove most of the other possibilities, so installing what more than likely, is a set of failed parts, seems at the very least counterintuitive.

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

My theory is the known factory removed injectors most likely didn't fail/possibly restrict at the same time/rate and can probably be more trusted that what's in there now and cheaper than suggesting buying known authentic replacement injectors without knowing for sure that will cure his issue, which is why I am also suggesting he have them verified/flow tested prior to him installing them. It's…

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Dan Owner/Technician
Texas
Dan
 

… NEW= NeverEverWorked (yet)… Dan H . … Hobbs … South Texas …

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

Agreed, that's why I spelled it as an acronym. Have safe holiday.

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Timothy Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Timothy
 

Unfortunately, getting injectors flow-tested, is a somewhat pricey thing in and of itself. There are only a few places to get it done, and my experience is that the best one (Lindner Tech) is long gone…I've had poor results from the testing companies out there. Heck, you can't really buy consistent injectors from companies that reman them! It does seem a path forward though…

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

There used to be Midwest Fuel Injection about twenty minutes from my shop that does mostly diesels, but would clean and test gasoline injectors, but remember they would recommend running them through twice at $24 dollars a cycle back when the GM early gang fired 2.8,3.1s were known to short. It was cheaper to get them remanned from Jim Linder. Midwest is still in business and about an hour from…

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Dan Owner/Technician
Texas
Dan
 

… Timothy … what would be wrong with testing the flow and delivery with a Snapon buzz box (with several repeatable timed buzz cycles…ie .250 ms…500 ms…WOT …Idle…cruise and haul ass) and a constantly supplied pressurized fuel source (like my injector cleaning cannister dialed into what I want) and a test tube marked with graduations (cave man ASNU machine)… looking at the spray pattern and…

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Timothy Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Timothy
 

Absolutely nothing wrong with that, except the figures for what actual flow should be are hard to come by. Is the flow you're seeing actually what the PCM wants? Unknown. The only thing I've ever been able to do, is to make sure they flow at some reasonably close percentage. You can nail an obviously some bad injector(s), but, it is difficult to tell what temp. and pressure range is being used…

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Tony Owner/Technician
Missouri
Tony
   

Just some thoughts as I try to keep up with the saga: I don't think the P/S switch would have a significant affect, at least nothing on the order of 30 -40% trim excursion. It is one of the least significant load indicators of the ECM inputs, similar to old school OBDI A/C compressor ON inputs that just tell the ECM to bump idle a bit. The 5MZ has a single bank of fuel trim, so you are relying…

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Brian Owner/Technician
British Columbia
Brian
 

Tried to point his out but no where near as well put. Have run into a lot Of Toyotas where cam timing has messed with things yet they seem to idle fine and even run around the block fine, just low on power. Lots of crank keyway issues and even the odd keyway on Cam pulleys. I think they needed to be ruled out at sometime during this endeavor

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul
 

As far as my transducers accuracy, when I applied full vacuum to for, it dropped 10 psi and the running psi was right at spec at 44, so I think it's okay. Also, when I did running compression, my vacuum was measuring just over -11 psi which analog gauge confirmed at a very steady just over 22 "hg. . Can't find valve timing specs, nor known good, but given vacuum is so smooth and stable, and if…

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Paul Mechanic
Illinois
Paul Resolution
 

Replaced injectors with remanufactured ones as customer only hung onto one for identification/sample purposes. Trims good and engine revs right up with no bogging or hesitation. While there are differences, if you're not doing these on a regular basis, I can see how someone could bite on these for the price (which would have been a flag for most professionals). - Addressing Tony and Brian's…

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