2011 Equinox timing chain
One of our rental vehicles which is a 2011 Equinox 2.4 VIN C (LAF) is in the shop experiencing a P0017 after timing chain and phaser replacement. It HAD a P0016 as well but after the repairs that codes has gone away and not come back. The P0017, however comes back and it runs terribly.
-Both solenoids (OEM) replaced a few months prior due to a P0010
-All parts OEM EXCEPT the chain which is the correct part number (Cloyes 9-4201SX)
-The exhaust cam could turn independently of the phaser so that got replaced and decided to replace the intake phaser at the same time
-The shim at the crank gear was removed to verify proper timing mark at the crank gear
-The intake cam was at the 10 o'clock position and the exhaust cam at the 7 o'clock position before assembling the chain and phasers.
-Chain was placed on the intake phaser with the uniquely colored link then the phaser was installed onto the cam then routed the chain down to the crank gear. That colored link was set on the cog that had the "dot" on the crank gear.
-Chain was placed on the exhaust phaser with the uniquely colored link then the exhaust cam was turned clockwise so the pin on the phaser would engage the notch in the cam.
-All other guides and the tensioner were set in and released the tensioner.
I then found a bulletin pertaining a possible shifted reluctor on the exhaust cam and I followed how to check for it. As you can see in the pic it is not flush with the head. I obtained an OEM camshaft to find that it did not look any different than the old one if I compared the 2 on a bench but I decided to use the new one anyway.
-There is no exhaust phasing on the scan tool due to the P0017
-The phasers have the same part numbers
-Engine was at TDC on the exhaust stroke
-16 links between marks on the phasers (including colored links)
I have attached my 2 files. One is with VVT unplugged and the other is VVT plugged in. There is a known good with VVT unplugged.
I'm just at a loss and feeling quite defeated as to why my exhaust cam is off after setting it up perfectly. Any help is greatly appreciated!
I am no real help here, but I will offer that I just went through this issue but with a 3.5 Ecoboost Explorer. Long story short, I had a severely stretched timing chain. Same code, P0017. Is it possible your aftermarket chain could be wrong?
I've used Cloyes with these engines in the past with no issue. It's hard to believe but possible I suppose.
I don't have much confidence in Cloyes. Don't rule out a faulty chain. Did you compare it to the old chain?
They're all there.
Hi Michael downloaded the unplugged file again now have the labels thanks
Reading through looks like you wrote : Engine TDC exhaust stroke You need #1 on Compession stroke, all the way up. #1 Cam lobes on base of lobe, free play under both ex. and int. Valves closed. Not sure if you meant that. The special tool camshaft holders that install on the opposite end from the phasers should be used for timing this engine. I had one off a tooth on the crank after doing a…
The repair instructions state it needs to be at TDC on the exhaust stroke.
Doug, just a question about how you said you were off a tooth at the crank. How could it have been off a tooth if you're using the special colored links on the chain to place them on the marks on the sprockets and crank gear?
Hi Michael: Have you looked at the Code Set Enable Criteria? It looks pretty straight-forward to me. Based upon what you posted, it appears that you may not quite understand what sets the code; i.e. "-There is no exhaust phasing on the scan tool due to the P0017". HTH, Guido
I'm assuming that because it has a code that it is inhibiting phasing on the exhaust side. Nevertheless, according to my captures the exhaust cam is off.
Hi Michael: GM states the opposite. gsi.ext.gm.com/gmspo/mode6/pd….pdf HTH, Guido
Anthony, do you have a thought based on all that I wrote as to why my exhaust cam is off?
P0017 is if a cam (in this case exhaust) is advanced or retarded more than 10 degrees. Mines retarded and I don't know why. That was the motive of this post. To see if anyone had any ideas on how my cam could be off. The "o'clock" positions are to only get you in the ball park. What really matters is the colored links go on the marks on the phasers
Hi Michael: If you didn't switch channels then no. I don't have an idea on how you got there. Well, maybe one or three. Is your known good capture from this engine? There appear to be 2. Both use the same VIN/RPO codes. Along those lines, did you install the correct exhaust cam? Is the reported oil temperature correct. Is it attempting to reset before the phaser is completely parked? My…
Known good is not from this engine, no. one file is with the solenoids unplugged and the other with them plugged in. The channel colors are flip flopped between the known good and mine as I didn't have control over that but they are all labeled. As mentioned, all parts with the exception of the chain which is a verified good part number are OEM.
Anthony, how would I see phaser operation when I see all zeros in the data stream? Exhaust isn't moving at all and like I said I was assuming this based on the fact that a code has been set.
Hi Michael, Have you tried clearing the DTC and taking a snapshot at start up? You should see the fault. I've got some snapshots of good and bad and to see the bad you have to catch the ECM before it codes.
Scott, I'm willing to try anything at this point. I use the Verus Edge. Can you explain how to get a snapshot right at startup?
Michael, it sounds like you have verified the crank to cam phasing is truly off and not a jumped gear, misaligned trigger/reluctor, etc; Have you considered a cross leak in the cam journal from excessive oil clearance? It might be worth a look. Good luck. Jim
Could I have this issue that you're suggesting with a new camshaft? The exhaust cam is new.
I don't see why not. Im referring to journal wear in the head. Did you notice any scoring. There isn't much surface area between the oil control transfer holes. Im guessing maybe a couple hundred thousand(0.200) give or take. You would have a better idea since you've had it apart. Plastigage may work to help determine clearances. Oil is what makes it move, correct? I can't remember this exact…
I replaced chain on Malibu Ecotech with aftermarket parts. 4000 miles later, it had stretched so bad the tensioner was fully extended and the chain jumped - bent valves - Needed engine.
I made the GIFs to compare the P0017 exhaust cmp position to the known good exhaust cmp position with the ckp
I see the difference in them for sure, would you agree the exhaust looks like it is advanced or retarded, not sure which pic is the known good
The first capture with the P0017 is the exhaust cam retarded 47.1 degrees
I'm reading over what you have here and comparing to service information. You said you had the intake cam notch at 10 oclock and the exhaust cam notch at 7 oclock. Alldata's procedure for installing the chain has 2 different positions depending on if you have a 2.2l or a 2.4l. The 2.4l positions are listed as intake at 5 oclock and exhaust at 7 oclock, and the 2.2l positions are listed as intake…
That's my fault..it was indeed 5 and 7. THanks for catching that
LAF motor is at 10 o’clock on the intake cam. Alldata is wrong. ProDemand shows it correctly. I just went through this with one of my techs in the shop.
Does Alldata have them backwards or are the 2.2L and 2.4L the same positions? Edit: Just peeked at IDfix, it reads like both engines should be intake at 10 and exhaust at 7?
2.2 and 2.4 need to be clocked differently on the intake cam. Exhaust is the same for 2.2 and 2.4
Update: With a few service infos steering me all over the verdict is Intake at 10 and Exhaust at 7. What I find odd is that I can turn the exhaust camshaft independently of the phaser. Like it's unlocked..I thought they should be locked when the engine is off.
Michael, most phasers have a lock pin that holds until oil pressure is sufficient, and a lot of exhaust phasers user a spring to wind it to lock position when the engine shuts down and the oil pressure falls off. The intake doesn't need the spring as the natural rotation direction will lock it until next start cycle, I'm not 100% yours is set up this way but I believe it is. Maybe someone else…
If it helps at all both phasers share the same part numbers.
Michael, could you scope the exhaust cmp and ckp from key on through start. I'd like to be able to see the initial cam position as the engine is cranking. (unplugged)
James, per your request I have added this file. As you can see it stalled first thing. Towards the end of the capture the idle got worse and worse. I assume this is from the actuator possiblye retarding the cam farther and farther?
The first cmp, ckp measurement is near the beginning of the PSD capture. The second cmp, ckp measurement is near the center of the capture. The third cmp, ckp measurement is near the end of the capture. The forth cmp, ckp measurement is the known good capture
Thanks for formatting the recordings. It helped since most of the time i am using my phone.
Michael, I am not seeing any movement. Cam is fixed. Usually you will see the phasing jumping around/erratic; Your doesn't. It looks as though timing is out- jumped gear, reluctor alignment, wrong cam, wrong phaser. Not thinking chain because your intake timing is ok. Is it ok?..... If your phasers isn't locking into start position i suspect you could show retarded as you do. Does your cam…
This has a new exhaust cam because I followed the TSB about a possible shifted reluctor gear. With cylinder number 4's exhaust valves fully open the reluctor was not flush with the cylinder head. I got an OEM cam but it was no different looking than the original one. I suspect it LOOKED like the reluctor was shifted because my phaser was not locked? That's just an assumption. The exhaust cam…
Yes, the capture was what I needed to see.
How was the cam/phaser assembly centre bolt tightened Michael? There's a holding tool EN-48953 designed to engage in the slots and hold the phasers, while loosening and tightening the bolts. BTW, the bolts are single use, remove, discard and replace. For all of these Ecotecs, holding the cam here with a wrench prevents any damage. Don't let valve spring tension allow to roll the cam over as it…
Martin, thank you for taking the time to explain this. I did use the special hold down tool to loosen and tighten the phaser bolts. and they were replaced. Engine was timed correctly with the right marks as well. I really think I might have a faulty brand new OEM phaser on the exhaust side. I will revisit my setup once again and report back.
You're welcome Michael. BTW, with the phaser holding tool on the engine as shown, the exhaust camshaft could not be be rotated at all with a 24 mm wrench on the cam.
That is what has me so stumped here. I followed procedure to a T and it's still giving me a problem. Good thing is it's one of my rentals and not a customers vehicle.
Still no improvement..I re timed this engine and i'm 100% confident that it was done properly and with the special tools. I even took the spark plugs out and let the engine turn over with the least amount of resistance within my control as to build up some oil pressure. When it started the engine didn't rattle at all but it still tosses a P0017 right away. What gets me is that the idle seems to…
Overlap on the valves is responsible for the rough running, similar to egr valve hanging. Timing is out. Refresh my memory...is that exhaust phaser lock pin holding? To answer your question, no i don't believe your problem is oiling. That cranking scope capture was to see if you had an oil control issue. You were retarded right out of the gate.
Well, I can say after looking into it again tonite the exhaust cam phaser does not appear to be holding. It moved independently for a few degrees then felt like it was locked. This is the 2nd OEM phaser I put on the exhaust cam because the first one was worse than this.
Let it sit overnight....than Crank it (maybe 5 seconds, before oil pressure can build) . See if you can move cam into lock again. If it holds locked, recheck timing with a scope, eng running. Try to capture start sequence.
Long one.. The Equinox is finally fixed! Brandon Steckler messaged me 2 nights ago asking if I had anything in the shop that I needed help with the next day. Yes..yes I do. If you recall it is a 2011 2.4 that would toss a P0017 almost immediately after engine start. A few months ago it had a P0010 and a P0013. At that time both solenoids were checked for their usual high resistance fault and…
Good work and thank you for the fix! Many VCT solenoids will show the pintle's opening hump in the amperage trace when the solenoid's control wire is taped to ground. If a solenoid's pintle is stuck partially open, allowing oil pressure to turn the phaser at all times, the amperage trace will not show the pintle opening hump. In this capture, CH B is the PCM's PWM control of the VCT…
Hi Ray. To add to your input. When controlling any solenoid manually from a scan tool control function, we cannot always assume that because the solenoid is functioning mechanically even with an audible "click" and appears to show a good waveform, that there is no internal leak or other issue beyond the pintle, even when a nice pintle hump is observed. Issues such as restricted screens or wear…
Hi Martin, the audible "click" only tells you that the pintle fully opened to it's stop position. The "click" test does not tell you if the pintle was fully seated. The pintle hump shows the amount of amperage the solenoid's winding needed to create the magnetic field to pull the pintle off of it's normally seated position. The cause of the P0017 was the oil pressure flowing thru the VCT…
That is exactly my point Ray. Unfortunately, "Clicks" and "humps" alone do not necessarily tell the whole story. Solenoid valves are susceptible to flow issues that typically set related DTCs, along with supporting symptoms. We've used it in automatic transmission training to demonstrate that just because a solenoid valve appears to be functioning electronically and audible mechanical noise…