1605 Def Level and Quality Sensor Problem

Michael Diagnostician Illinois Posted   Latest  
Case Study
Heavy Duty
2016 New Flyer Xcelsior 6.7L (ISB 6.7 Diesel)
Has Active Codes 3868
Has Active Codes 4677
Has Active Codes 4572

Here is a case study I have using scan Data and some basic Circuit Checks with a Dvom. It has Active Fault Codes 3868, 4677, 4572. These codes state basically that it has issues with the Diesel Exhaust Fluid Quality, Temperature, and level. All of these codes say it has an abnormal update rate.

So what does the Cummins Ecm mean by Abnormal Update Rate? A Computer has to able to take in information and be able to understand the information it's getting. What Abnormal Update Rate means in this scenario is the Computer is seeing information that is not making any sense, so the Computer logs the codes. The Computer is not seeing the proper information from the DEF Tank Level/ Temperature/Quality Sensor. All of these sensors are one unit that are installed inside the DEF Tank. So we have the codes, where should we start? First thing I always do is check Freeze Frame. So for the Quality code nothing looks to bad here so far, temperature and level look ok at first glance. Here is the rest of the freeze frame for this code.

3868 Freeze Frame no 2

3868 Freeze Frame no 3

3868 Freeze Frame no 4

3868 Freeze Frame no 5

3868 Freeze Frame no 6

So for the Freeze Frame on the 3868 code their is really nothing that is showing anything useful for diagnosing this code. Here is the Freeze Frame for the 4677 Code.

4677 Freeze Frame no 1

4677 Freeze Frame no 2

4677 Freeze Frame no 3

4677 Freeze Frame no 4

4677 Freeze Frame no 5

4677 Freeze Frame no 6

Freeze Frame came up short on 4677, here is the last one 4572.

4572 Freeze Frame no 1

4572 Freeze Frame no 2

4572 Freeze Frame no 3

4572 Freeze Frame no 4

4572 Freeze Frame no 5

4572 Freeze Frame no 6

So for the last code it turned up short as well. Freeze Frame showed nothing conclusive. I have seen this happen before where Freeze Frame will not help you at all. Also pay attention to the pids that are in Freeze Frame. Sometimes Cummins will leave out important Pids in the Freeze Frame. So after seeing nothing in Freeze Frame I decided to see if I saw anything in regular numerical data. In the first one I see nothing useful.

After scrolling down I finally find some useful information. I find that my Diesel Exhaust Fluid Quality Temperature says it is 32 Degrees Fahrenheit, the Quality Percent is zero, the Tank Level is 8 percent and I can see that in the tank it is full of Def. The Tank Temperature says it's at 68 Degrees Fahrenheit. My Tank Temperature Sensor Voltage is also at Zero Volts. Interesting, my Tank Temp says 68 Degrees Fahrenheit but my Tank Temperature Sensor Voltage says 0 Volts. What has happened is Cummins has put in a substituted value during this default. From my experience Cummins will not default the Voltage Values, so pay attention to the Voltage Values on your Pids. As everyone has seen before in a prior case study I have been using the Texa Unit and I am very impressed with the capabilities of this tool. Here I will show all the screen shots I have for the Texa. The Texa gave me the same codes as Insite and gave me the same data.

Texa 1

Texa 2

Texa 3

Texa 4

On the Texa 4 link I was looking at the Coolant Temperature Pid to see if it matched close to the def tank temperature. However after I saw the Signal Voltage for Tank Temperature was not correct I now knew to ignore the Def Tank Temperature Pid. This is also shown in the next Texa Capture. Also as you can see the Texa is showing the same amount of tank level for Def Fluid.

Texa 5

Texa 6

Texa 7 So now that I have shown all this, what should you check to find the issue? Since everything that is effected is inside the Def Tank you need to check Powers, Grounds, and Communication lines. First thing I did was I checked Power and Ground to the unit and it held Voltage when I loaded the circuit.

I made a jumper harness to make it easier to test the circuits.

Open Circuit voltage.

Ok so after I saw this reading I ruled out a Open Circuit or Short to Ground. The next step was to load the circuit and see if I had any connection issues.

Loaded Circuit Voltage

As you can see the Voltage Dropped a little bit but that is expected. This indicates the circuit can carry a load. After that I checked Can Hi and Can Lo. Can Hi and Lo checked out ok. So after that I decided to do some Harness shakes and pulls to just make sure. I used the Data logger on Texa to log the data while I shook the harness that way If I did miss something on the screen while I was shaking the harness it would catch it.

Texa Data logger 1

Texa Data logger 2

So I saw nothing obvious on the Data Logger. I have now finished the Diagnosis, it needs a new Def Tank Level Sensor and Quality Sensor Assembly. Replacing this sensor is no easy task on this Bus. So to prove I fixed the issue I just plugged in a good Sensor Assy and it gave me these codes on the Texa

As you can see the Tank Level Code, Quality Sensor Code and the Tank Temperature code went Yellow on Texa which means the codes are now inactive and the Sensor Assembly is communicating with the Cummins Ecm. Diesel Exhaust Fluid Quality Abnormal Rate of Change is Active because their is no DEF in the Tank.

Well that is it, hope everyone enjoyed it. Sorry I didn't go Hi Tech this Time with the Pico, Due to the nature of the symptoms I didn't think the Pico was needed. That's pretty shocking coming from me right? Lol. Hope everyone has a good evening. Stay tuned, I have more to share.

Bob Owner/Technician
Bob Default

Nice diag Mike. You made use of system data and basic tests to sort out a complex system. God bless you working on those things. ;-)

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Michael Diagnostician
Michael Default

Thanks Bob, I really enjoy what I do. I hope the HD Membership on here continues to grow so other like minded individuals will share as well.

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Alejandro Technician
Alejandro Default

Thanks for sharing Mr. Eilbracht that was a great case study. I had to ask whats your opinion on the load pro, do you get a lot of use out of it? I have one myself, and used it once so far in about 2 years of owning one. I've heard mixed reviews on it but whats been your experience with it?

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Michael Diagnostician
Michael Default

I appreciate the compliment Alejandro. I have been using the load pro since 2009. It is a very handy tool. You just have to understand how it works and what applications to use it for. The tool is basically like a Test Lamp except you can see how much voltage drops across the resistor inside the tool. I have had quite a bit of success with the tool. The tool can't be used for everything, but it

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Alejandro Technician
Alejandro Default

Okay thank you, and no you are not stirring up any hornets nests here. Maybe sometime soon on the next vehicle I will begin to use it.

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