99 Dodge Ram 2500 Diesel Intermittent Stall and Does Not Restart
P0216 injection pump timing falures
Good morning every body I am looking for help on this Cumming 5.9 L diesel here is the story: This vehicle came to the shop on the flat, customer concerned was during driving on highway engine turn off with no previous lack of power or check engine light on. Get off the road and it is solid crank, no-start, does not even attempt to start.
It's been 3 times already to the shop. The first time it was on the shop had those DTC's are on the photo, the other 2 times same conditions of failing but no codes .
First time I checked lift pump it is updated on the frame, bump started 25 seconds plenty of fuel with no air in the filter housing. I also checked fuel presuure during crank no start = 12 psi.
There is not data on scanner as actual and desire fuel pressure. So I had this DTC for fuel injection pump timing. When I check the high pressure pump has paint on it as it it is being replaced recently. So call the customer and he said he experience this issues about a year ago and that shop replace the high pressure pump and lift pump.
Service manual information for the code is pretty much pointing to replace the high pressure pump without more detail then check powers and ground and communication of data lines checked all of them load tested with 4 amp test ligth and voltage drops at same time all good.
So I decided to check the metal high pressure line conctor nut at injectors connecting tubes, I checked all of them the number 3 and 6 were almost loose, no resistance to turn so I open crack them, crank engine air came out try to start. Closed the torque all of them to 27 lb engine start and stabilize, great start every time wit no issues test drive many miles prior releasing no codes good .
At that time my theory was probably the previous shop did the job did not torque the nuts at connecting tubes for injector, and they got loose, loosing high pressure internal leaks in between the injectors/connecting transfer tubes.
Second time came to the shop after 1 1/2 month 2,000 mi, same falure, but no codes came back to the shop crank no start failed same manner than firs time, I checked the nuts at connecting tubes and were tight, I loosen the number 3 and crank engine I saw no fuel on first crank keep cranking with the crack open, start seen air and after solid fuel, wanted to start, stop cranking and tightening nut at trasnfer tube, no start keep running the engine re-start good every time, no drivability issues good power under load. At this time I thought the flare nut at injectors from transfer tubes were deformed, I sell the the 6 high pressure lines from pump, also all 6 fuel injector transfer tube, road tested about 40 mi. release vehicle.
Third time next day the vehicle fail same conditions than previous no dtc present at all, I open the bleeder at fuel housing and bump start, get fuel no air, keep cranking dies not attempt to start. 2, I remove the line at high pressure pump return I got fuel out. 3 I wanted to cup each injector at the fuel pump renove hard line plugged unfortunately my cap is not the right for this year it leaks. I reinstalled the line, crack open the injector nut of cylinder one, first came out air, started coming fuel with air when I saw solid fuel wanted to start, stop tightening and now start.
I know it is getting air somewhere, my question is to you guys what other test can I do that will lead me to pinpoint where I am getting air internal on the high pressure pump? Please need help.
added a link for a video testing for aeration
not sure but if you loose you fuel pump or intermittent lost power to fuel pump or weak fuel pump it will also act like this.
yes it will but I have solid crank no start at all time after stalling , than bleeding the high pressure makes it start right away, power and ground lost intermitent mat no cause air in the system
Are you sure that there you don't have one or more nozzles leaking off? This would cause the air lock in the lines. I would focus on that before the pump code. The vp44 pump most commonly fails due to low supply pressure and module failure. It will run with very low pressure but causes irreversible damage to the pump. Also if your power and grounds for the pump are good that's all it needs to start and idle. There is a Cummins pump tool (Cummins 3163834) that you can plug into the pump and it will start and run at low and high idle without the ecm.
thank you for the tip
I do not know how to insulate what nozzle could be leaking, could you elaborate the test for me please?
they already repalce the hpp, and lift pump this is upgraded lift pump on rail , seem like it is providing good pressure and volume according to the 25 seconds test.
When it doesn't start, you don't have air at the hpp correct? The upgraded lift pump is a good fix. I'm not sure what service information you're using, but you can get free info from cummins for five engine serial numbers. Go to cummins quick serve and make an account. You will need the cummins engine serial number for this engine. When they approve your account, you will have access to service and parts manuals and troubleshooting that will be far superior to anything that you can get from the Dodge side. After you have five serial numbers on your quickserve account you will have to upgrade to a pay account. All of the tests that you should need you will find there.
I do have air on the hpp sytem bleeding the line at connecting tube makes it start.
I meant the supply to the pump. I wasn't thinking about the stallling, so I doubt that it would be a nozzle. The title says 1998 and the picture says 1999. They are different. A 1998 1/2 is an odd ball, if I remember right there was a problem with the fuel lines on that year. Try quickserve, it will be worth it.
on identifix it shows both 12 valve and 24 valve Eng. for that yr. i believe it to be 24va the upgraded lift pump what make or brand name, need more info.
I open a hot line help with identifix already , they guide me with the testimg procedure the shop wants me to do testing next week , because of holidays , today is last day of work of the week .
I will post the result
have you scoped the crank signal at idle? I've fixed multiple of these codes that were caused by a faulty Bosch ECM ground. It shows up on the crank signal, and will have 3 events per crank rotation where the entire signal is shifted up off of ground and above 5 volts
I will scope it , but call my attentions why will I have air in the high pressure side ?
You may have a combo of problems. Air in the lines will not set the timing codes. The fault I mentioned is caused by the timing solenoid on the pump. Not because the solenoid is faulty, but because it does pull fairly high amps 3 times per crank revolution and overloads the ecm grounds
A possibility is that the pump is being controlled properly and not allowing enough fuel into the pump chamber to be discharged, resulting in pump cavitation. I could be wrong on that one tho, but without being at the vehicle, there are several possibilities.
Over the years, I have had a few of these pumps give me a run for my money. Air can get into the VP44 from the supply side, and from the return side. I remember one that had a very small crack in the #6 injector line, up under the injector nut. Now, since you have replaced all the fuel lines, I guess you might have that one covered. I have also seen the return lines at the rear of the cylinder head leak air into the system. Sad to say, it can leak air without leaking fuel. If perchance there is any wetness of fuel back there, (you might need to use a mirror and good sharp light to see it), then roll up your sleeves and prepare to recycle some skin.
For leaks on the fuel supply side, put a piece of clear plastic hose in between the filter & the VP44, make the hose long enough to make a good loop up along side the engine. This way, if any air gets into the line, the air will come to the top and you can see it.
good tips , thank you on monday I start my testing process,
what do you think the best method will be to check for leaks on return side , you said it will afect on hhp, if air is in return side how??
The air leak in the return allows the fuel to drain back to the tank starting from the return from the injectors, then allowing a little air into the high pressure lines. This air in the high pressure then allows a cushion for the VP44 to pump against, and nothing will come out of the injector nozzles.
When working on systems like this, keep in mind, all you are working on is a basic hydraulic system. If hydraulic pressure is built, it needs three things. 1, a pump capable of making pressure and moving volume 2, it needs a solid column of fluid between the pump and the restriction 3. it needs a restriction to push against. If any of these three are missing, you will not have the needed pressure to operate the system.
yes , I ave a short video i think I can not upload it here.
will soon for sure
I am finished with diagnostic I can not post a video of clear hoses I attached , there was air passing trough the suction side of lift pump , I advised customer to remove fuel tank and find where is the aeration, also I advised that could not solve the complete issues , because damage to the high pressure pump may have ocurred already .
customer decide to sell tbe truck as it is .
thanks to every body for your help