Permanent DTC Clearing -need help--2012 Sienna
We put new PCM, flashed with latest soft at Toyota Dealer, cleared codes--All Monitors ready, no Codes in Generic view and Enhanced view; No current, Pending, History codes--all good only--in Mode 10 ($0A Display Permament DTC)--it has code P0560 which we fixed and verified PCM sees 14.2 volts. when i run on Smog Machine it catches the PDTC P0560 and fails vehicle smog check.....customer drove 100+ miles within 2 weeks---still PDTC not cleared. im runnin out clues. its a NEW CALIFORNIA Smog Check Enforcement PDTC and i never delt with so not sure how to Drive cycle it to clear it.
As per the California BAR regulation, you can smog the car with a Permanent DTC that does not clear itself once the car has driven 200 miles and completed 15 warm up cycles.
If you have the freeze frame data for that code, if you can be within I believe 10 to 15% of each pid data to run that code criteria 3 times. It would self heal to clear that Permanent DTC. As mentioned with Nate. That is what It should be shown to clear the permanent DTC.
Freeze data says - no dtc stored to show freeze. PDTC is different animal
You can not clear permanent codes. You have to drive the car for about 50 drive cycles before they will clear
We told customer do some longer trips. Hes going out of town—hopefully that makes 200 miles and 15 warmUps.
Why would a NEW PCM have that …de in history? When programming the new PCM, you transfer the info from the old PCM to the new PCM. Why would that history …me with? Can you install a new PCM without transfering the old info, like Ford's as bulit data? Just trying to learn. thank you
Toyota dealer did reflash—I dont know if they set up as fresh new or transfered from old pcm
Reflash should not be a hardware change. Permanent DTC's may reside in a chipset not cleared during updates to prevent emissions tampering. This would prevent being able to bypass a permanent DTC by means of reflashing. As stated before the PCM needs to complete internal testing ( road testing) to clear permanent DTC.
Maksim, Toyota PCM's come with calibration. All that would be needed is checking for latest calibration, VIN write, and Immobilizer handshake if not in Auto Registration. Most new Toyota/Lexus PCM's I do already have latest calibration. Something doesn't seem right here.
Customer brought his own Used PCM to put on. So toyota dealer took and did handshake for immo n updater soft to latest
Maksim, So its not a NEW PCM. I am very surprised a Toyota dealer even dealt with a used PCM. Even so. If used PCM did not have that code it should not be there now unless there was an issue after replacement or you were unlucky enough to have a used PCM that had the same issue you are battling which is not likely. There is more to this story.
John, I reread the original post, and there needs to be some clarification of the line: "it has code P0560 which we fixed and verified PCM sees 14.2 volts." From that, it sounds like the car had an overvoltage issue which he repaired after the replacement PCM was installed. And if that's what happened, that would explain the source of the code.
Nate, Agreed. There definitely needs to be further clarification. In my world I hear the word "new" all the time. It is amazing what some shops deem new. A used module that is new to the vehicle is not new. Clarification is the key indeed.
My bad for saying “new” it was not intentional typo, i was in a hurry typing it up—i was thinking to post asap to get some feedback and clarify later—
Maksim, No worries. When asking for help with an issue the details can bury you and cause a lot of wasted time. Always best to have clarification and accurate details. Just food for thought.
Hi John, I could be wrong, but I suspect the donor vehicle/ECM had this DTC stored. No - I just did a check on this DTC and the flow chart. It looks like it's a Type B DTC (if Toyota's are the same as GM in their classification and not a permanent DTC) and it should be able to be cleared with a scan tool if there is no fault. I'd be looking at the P/I and the EFI Main fuses, battery…
All fuses were good. All powers to PCM were present at the PCM connector and i even twisted slightly PCM pins to get tight connection. Charging voltage/ vehicle running voltage 14.2v and same voltage shows on PCM data. I also put a custom high current bulb and load tested Powers to PCM—voltage did not drop—-so i thought its PCM internal glitch—-so we go ahead with Another PCM (custome brought…
Scott, I agree need further clarification. The bitch of diagnosing or lending a hand from miles away. It can be dicey for sure. Hope things are well by you.
Hi John, Actually things are not going all that great. I realize I'm probably no different than anyone else that has been doing this for a few years... I'm disillusioned with what's out here for technicians. I just laid someone off today. A really nice kid, I feel horrible. I just can't go through this anymore. Almost everything I get is challenging and requires thought. All the easy stuff…
Scott, Sorry to hear of your situation. Unfortunately, it is all too common nowadays. Many people are done with this industry. This profession especially as an owner can wear you out. On top of it there is no one that will really understand your issues unless you are firmly entrenched in the industry and have a understanding of the daily trials and tribulations presented. My circle and I…
That's what I thought. I've installed one before. All it needed was like a 30min. immobilizer handshake and it was good to go.
Yes if you use ford ids system
If it does not clear itself this week have customer contact you for further instructions.
My coworker rebuilt a salvaged Focus RS and it had permanent codes for the turbo. He had to drive the car for over 250 miles and lots of start cycles till they cleared themselves. These permanent codes are going to suck for repair and smog in the future on newer cars. Yes customer, we fixed your car but you need to drive it for 250-500 miles before you can smog it. No problem that you waited…
I actually looked up Appendix J (exemption/testability issues...etc ) for Toyota—nothing there yet. But i think if shops start complaining to BAR about it—-they might lover the bar for PDTC.
All, Gee I’m glad to be living and working in a PA county with no required OBD emissions testing. The push to OUTLAW internal combustion engine powered vehicles has begun in CA. Randy
Hi Randy, Even though you live in an area that doesn't have testing, you are affected by what the EPA & NHTSA/Legislators, have proposed with CAFE, greenhouse gases...,regulations - actually we're all affected by this. Have you seen what the standards are? diag.net/file/f4me72dd2… So, while I agree California has been pushing their agenda for a while now, they are not alone.
Robert- The customer only need have 15 warm-up cycles or 200 miles before it can be smogged. Whether the PDTC is cleared or not. In my experience,the newer the vehicle,the easier it is to clear PDTCs (we do OIS only,so I see them alot)
Maksim- You can look in Mode $01 to see how many miles have passed and how many warm-up cycles. If it has eclipsed 15/200 youre good to smog.
Hey thats smart idea—-i never thought about mode $01...thanx ill write it down for futtre PDTC verification
as they said the DTC set during programming for over voltage , there is more information in the following link from the BAR of California for permanent DTC. bar.ca.gov/Industry/Indus….aspx
Yes i read it thry. Hopefuly mode $01 will tell me axactly how many miles and drive cycles left. Customer havent came back from trip yet... ill keep you updated
mode 10 was put in there so you could see if someone cleared codes out. The PCM will remove it at the appropriate time. As stated by others, this shouldn't keep it from passing a snog check. Just let the customer drive the vehicle. As long as there is no other issue, there is nothing to be concerned about. Likely it will clear itself out in the near future depending on the PCM's program.
Im smog tech myself—i smog it 2 times it still picks up PDTC and fails for it beeing stored and not cleared. ( no codes in Generic or Enhanced view—only PDTC in mode 10 and smog machine doesnt like that)
If the 15/200 have already eclipsed and it still fails the OIS, kick it to the Ref. There is nothing more for you to do.
I was thinking about that. Customer still haven’t come back yet. It’s kind of slow right now I probably give him a call to stop by and check PDTC for clearin. ill keep you guys updated
Update: see my latest reply
Update: see my latest reply
Just came today—checked got confused: 2 different mileage data—but both say Since DTC Cleared. Not sure what number to believe—told customer drive 67 miles more to get to 200 mark. What you guys think?
Only 17 warmups for the 133 mile pid. 30 warm up for the 203 mile pid. Not sure the difference of E9, but could be the time before when codes cleared. Look at your last work order mileage and see if it matches the 133 miles since cleared.
Hey black market idea here: what if i get same year sienna and program vin to it from problem car—-Pass smog. And program back. ( just crazy idea...) i kno bar wont like that
Update: see my latest reply!