2012 Grand Caravan 3.6L intermittent no start current ramp lesson

Robert Diagnostician Oldsmar, Florida Posted   Latest   Edited  
Case Study
Driveability
Electrical
2012 Dodge Grand Caravan Canada Value Package 3.6L (G ERB Flex) 6-spd (62TE)
Intermittent No Start Cranks Ok

Just wanted to share something i think some of you are likely familiar with here. Vehicle was towed in for no start and as life would have it it starts up for us upon arrival. Scan for codes no codes stored. Being familiar with the fuel pump relay failures in these ( integrated into TIPM Module ) and the bypass relay kit from Chrysler i decided to current ramp the fuel pump first. The current waveform of the fuel pump looked great. Next i decided to go into the PCM and i was going to turn the fuel pump on and off through active test and see if i could catch the relay acting up. What i found next was realy cool. On this particular vehicle it has a toggle test which proved to work out great. I changed the time base on my scope current test and toggled away. Minutes later i captured the relay not working at times. slam dunk baby ! not only did i capture the relay intermittently not working i could see that the TPIM module was still commanding the relay coil on and off when it acted up. The contacts were not closing properly or burnt. This tells me that the issue truly is the relay and not the TIPM module itself. Hope this helps others who come across these platforms when the vehicl shows up running and you are hoping it acts up in your search for truth. Chrysler does have a TSB for this kit and how to install it.

+13
Marlin Technician
Estacada, Oregon
Marlin Default
 

I suggest that you monitor voltage also when testing such circuits. First, you can determine if the relay contacts are substantially degraded. Second, it eliminates the possibility of getting fooled by an intermittent open down-line of the test point.

+1
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Stuart Mobile Technician
Blue Island, Illinois
Stuart Default
 

I know that GMs have similar issues as the pumps get older and draw more amps and takes out the relay​.​This is a first time that I heard it from a Chrysler product​.​Thanks for sharing

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Harley Owner/Technician
Kansas City, Kansas
Harley Default
 

Great job explaining the process. And the captures are a real help.

+1
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Kirk Mechanic
Jackson, Michigan
Kirk Default
 

nice

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Randy Diagnostician
Glendora, California
Randy Default
 

Is not amperage kind of high

+1
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
David Instructor
Kokomo, Indiana
David Default
 

At first look I agree - looks a bit high so I look up the spec from our catalog. The Delphi pump spec is 11 amps (average) so the high and low swing of the current ramping average right around that number on Robert's scope. The flex fuel pumps have a slightly different design that draws more current than the pumps rated up to E15.

+2
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Mike Technician
St. Louis, Missouri
Mike Default
 

Hi David. Is this catalog with the fuel pump specs available to anyone? Thanks, Mike.

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
David Instructor
Kokomo, Indiana
David Default
 

Yes, just google Delphi Auto Parts, click on catalog, then find your application, click on the p/n and then click on parf info.

+2
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Mike Technician
St. Louis, Missouri
Mike Default
 

Thank you.

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Phil Technician
Tewksbury, Massachusetts
Phil Default
 

It's in their online catalog. Never realized that they had amperage specs. included. partcat​.​com/delphi?_ga=2​.​5…

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Rudy Technician
Montebello, California
Rudy Default
   

Looks to be around 10 amps or so. Thats fairly normal. The uniformity of the current trace is what is important, since there is no real spec available to us for what the current should be. (If you are referring to the 16 amp spike,that is in-rush current from him toggling the relay off and on)

+3
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Marlin Technician
Estacada, Oregon
Marlin Default
 

On which capture? They are far different. I suspect that he didn't have his ammeter zeroed for the first one.

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Robert Diagnostician
Oldsmar, Florida
Robert Default
 

I screen shot these waveforms off my Pico I should leave the settings when I post stuff like this takes away confusion. The probe was zeroed in both captures. And to be clear the real reason I posted it was to share how one could toggle the relay and watch the relay ( which is not accessible ) when the vehicle is not acting up regularly. I could have started it half the day before getting it to…

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Marlin Technician
Estacada, Oregon
Marlin Default
 

I don't understand what you are trying to communicate regarding the displayed current in your captures. The one shows approximately 11A, the other shows approximately 9A. Yes, your second capture indicates that there was an effect in the motor circuit when the relay was commanded. I would need to know the location of the ammeter and zoom in on the capture before calling that certain evidence…

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Robert Diagnostician
Oldsmar, Florida
Robert Default
 

The M25 fuse was removed with a fused jumper wire installed in its place. This is where both the current waveforms were taken.

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Marlin Technician
Estacada, Oregon
Marlin Default
 

Tip- in situations such as this, scope the voltage on the circuit first, before removing the fuse. You can easily identify whether or not the relay contacts have a problem, you will not modify a connection issue in the fuse box by the wiggling which occurs when removing the fuse, and you can wiggle the fuse while watching for voltage changes. THEN remove the fuse for current testing, if needed…

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Robert Diagnostician
Oldsmar, Florida
Robert Default
 

Well put and taken with thanks

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Robert Diagnostician
Oldsmar, Florida
Robert Default
 

As a side note I just became a member here and I am so glad to see some old names from the early iATN days resurface. I wandered away for many years because people were just getting way to negative and abusive to one another there. Thanks for having me and sure am looking forward to reconnecting with some folks and getting to know some new ones as well. I see a treasure chest of knowledge here…

+2
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Randy Diagnostician
Glendora, California
Randy Default
 

good case study

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
George Owner/Technician
Skagway, Alaska
George Default
 

Me too Robert. I gave up on Iatn quite a while ago.

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Robert Diagnostician
Fair Oaks, California
Robert Default
 

Did not know they had a relay bypass kit for those. Good to know. thanks.

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff Default
 

Done the relay kit before, but I haven't seen the "toggle test" in the scan tool yet. Great tip!

+1
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Matthew Technician
Elmsdale, Nova Scotia
Matthew Default
 

Here is one I took from my in-laws Caravan this weekend coincidentally. Very intermittent in their case, it took me 15 minutes to catch the drop out at the end. Instead of using the toggle function in my scan tool the activation you see is me cycling the key on to prime the pump. Also, the main concern that the van would intermittly not start. I would have liked to capture the complete failure…

+1
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Robert Diagnostician
Oldsmar, Florida
Robert Default
 

Very common issue with TPIM modules on Chryslers and Jeeps that have the fuel pump relay integrated in it. This type of testing is good when the symptom is intermittent. Another symptom is the fuel pump real stays on ( latched ) and kills the overnight (intermittent) same issue different symptom.

+1
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Robert Diagnostician
Oldsmar, Florida
Robert Default
 

Here is the PDF to install the fuel pump bypass relay if someone needs it in the future.

+1
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
David Instructor
Kokomo, Indiana
David Default
 

Bob, this is a great case study and an eye opener for me. Since the vehicle application didn't call out a TSB (but the Mopar document you provided definitely fixed the van) a lot of techs (and trainers like myself who struggle to stay up to date) would have no clue had they not seen this. An eventual (and expensive) TIPM replacement would be the solution unless (maybe) you "YouTubed it"…

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Marlin Technician
Estacada, Oregon
Marlin Default
 

This is an interesting issue. I am very surprised by how many responses state that this issue and repair were not known. I expected that almost everyone already knew about it. Part of the problem is that FCA only presents this repair and corresponding TSB for certain models, though more are affected the same way. I don't know why they did that, but anyone who works on FCA/Dodge/Chrysler/RAM/Jeep…

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Robert Diagnostician
Oldsmar, Florida
Robert Default
 

any time Dave

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Robert Diagnostician
Oldsmar, Florida
Robert Default
 

To be clear the two symptoms we have encountered through the years is intermittent no start ( sometimes described as long crank ) and intermittent dead battery ( that is very common ) some customers will comment they heard something still running when they shut the vehicle off.

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Saul Owner
Houston, Texas
Saul Default
 

Yes very common problem on the Rams, grand caravan, and Jeep as you mentioned. I went for the harder fix, by replacing internal relays. I didn't know they actually had a kit for this issues. There are few internal relays on those TPIM, one fuel pump which is the most common one, and also there are for the front wiper and another for the rear wipers. Thanks for the case study!!!

+1
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Matthew Technician
Elmsdale, Nova Scotia
Matthew Default
 

Where have you found the replacement relays at? This would be the ideal repair instead of splicing wires.

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Robert Diagnostician
Oldsmar, Florida
Robert Default
 

chrsyler carries the relay kits the parts you will need are in the PDF I posted above. The relay kit does not come with the inline fuse holder and fuse you will need either. All 3 parts are listed in the PDF.

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Matthew Technician
Elmsdale, Nova Scotia
Matthew Default
 

Sorry Robert, I was asking about the replacement relay internal to the TIPM that Saul had mentioned.

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Dominick Technician
Bernardsville, New Jersey
Dominick Default
 

Nice Job. So you installing a bypass kit?

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Robert Diagnostician
Oldsmar, Florida
Robert Default
 

Yes bypass kit was installed and issue rectified

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded
Dominick Technician
Bernardsville, New Jersey
Dominick Default
 

Good deal!

0
Default Ð Bounty Awarded