Ford that hates to be worked on — IDS and VCM2

Andrew Technician Midland, Texas Posted   Latest   Edited  
Question
Electrical
2017 Ford F-250 Super Duty XLT 6.7L 6-spd (TorqShift)
Crank / No Start

If you connect a factory scan tool to the DLC connector the interior lights will turn off along with the instrument cluster. I am using a Panasonic tough book with factory Ford IDS and VCM2. If I use it on any other ford truck it works fine. It's a 2017 ford F-250 xlt 6.7 diesel. If I connect a OTC breakout box to the DLC then the VCM2 to the breakout box everything works fine. 

My question is why is it only factory scan tool does this and why? I tried my snap on Zeus and works just fine. I tried my matco / rebranded launch pad and works fine. 

All I was gonna do was update ECM along with clearing codes in attempt to fix someone putting contaminated DEF inside DEF tank. Here's how the situation started, the truck was brought in with the complaint of DEF light on. Pulled sample from tank checked it with refractometer and tested bad at 12 well below the 32.5 mark of good quality DEF. Connected my VCM2 and there you go engine sound changed, lights on cluster went off then gauges went all the way down as if the key was off. I shut the truck off turns into a no crank no start. Pulled the vcm2 off the dlc and everything goes back to normal. 

Anyone have any ideas? 

+3
Daryll Diagnostician
Seymour, Tennessee
Daryll
 

Simply pluggin the VCM2 into the dlc does this? Or when starting communications? Does it do it if the vcm is disconnected from the usb cable?

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded
Andrew Technician
Midland, Texas
Andrew
 

Just plugging in the vcm2 to the dlc. Tried our older vcm2 same thing. Something on the truck side just does not like that . But like I said my snap on zeus will connect with no problems. So basically the computer or the cable not connected same. And using the wireless USB same problem. And once the vcm2 is connected it shows basically as is there is no power meaning the vcm2 does not illuminate

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded
Rick Instructor
Tucson, Arizona
Rick
 

My suggestion would be to backprobe the dlc if possible and grab some scope patterns. See how hooking up each of the tools affects the pattern. Post the captures here and we can probably get you headed in the right direction. If no scope is avaliable then try a dvom. It sounds like the network is getting shorted somehow. The scope patterns will say for sure.

+3 Ð Bounty Awarded
Jaime Diagnostician
Ocala, Florida
Jaime
 

That vehicle is working as designed. If you look closely at the data link connector there is a module behind it. Your vcm2 is considered and intrusion, a violation of security. I believe if you tried to start the vehicle it would not respond. Ford has a specific method of connecting a vcm 2 to that vehicle. I believe that you may need to use the vcm update tool in order to make it work on that

+10 Ð Bounty Awarded
Andrew Technician
Midland, Texas
Andrew
 

Yes sir it's a fleet vehicle. Leased to us by another company but yes fleet vehicle. So how would I go about with connecting the vcm. Or is there something I need to download to fix this problem.

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff
 

Dang Jaime, that's some serious Jedi Master knowledge, right there,

+2 Ð Bounty Awarded
Michael Mobile Technician
Clinton, Utah
Michael
 

I had this issue with certain tools on a 2015 F150. The fix was to bind the 2 ground leads (4 and 5) with an OBDII breakout box. One of the grounds had a poor connection. It totally freaked out the entire bus.

+2 Ð Bounty Awarded
Mike Instructor
Fresno, California
Mike
 

What is the VIN?

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Andrew Technician
Midland, Texas
Andrew
 

I'll get the vin in the morning I already left the shop

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Mike Instructor
Fresno, California
Mike
 

47635 Various Vehicles - Data Link Connector (DLC) Connection - Vehicles Equipped With Gateway Module (GWM) When connecting the Vehicle Communication Module (VCM) and Integrated Diagnostic System (IDS) or Ford Diagnosis and Repair System (FDRS) to the DLC located on the driver side under the steering column at the GWM, make sure that the ignition is off before connecting the VCM. If the ignition

+10 Ð Bounty Awarded
Andrew Technician
Midland, Texas
Andrew
 

This is why I bought the whole year subscription to this. You guys are awesome thank you mike

+3 Ð Bounty Awarded
Glen Owner/Technician
Arthur, Illinois
Glen
 

If what Mike posted does not work, check the DLC terminals. If that does not work there have been some cases of bad gateway modules that will act up with a worn VCMII cable but work fine with the VCMM.

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded
David Owner
Cambridge, United Kingdom
David
   

Makes sense ! However, it's unbelievable how many techs do not respect the BASIC rule of NOT connecting a tool to the DLC - or disconnecting the tool from it - with the ignition on.

+4 Ð Bounty Awarded
Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff
 

I have never in my life heard that "rule". Where did you learn that?

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
David Owner
Cambridge, United Kingdom
David
 

On numerous training sessions.

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff
 

Thanks. Never had a training session with a scan tool. Was that at a dealership?

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded
David Owner
Cambridge, United Kingdom
David
 

No, at the tool manufacturer - or rather several of them.

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff
 

thanks. I've never met any of the manufacturers. I don't think I know anybody that has. I'll ask the Snap-On guy next time I see him if he has ever heard of this. It's certainly not common knowledge around here. I'll look for any documentation for connecting a scan tool next chance I get. I asked my co-worker if they were taught that at his trade school and he said "no".

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
David Owner
Cambridge, United Kingdom
David
   

I'm not trying to complicate this. And in response to one of your other comments : "Not sure what you are asking" - I don't think I was asking anything; rather I was replying to a comment? However, I'm not surprised that you have never met any of the manufacturers - and most people don't! Over the years, I've trained at tool manufacturers because I distributed their tools, and it helps to know a

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff
 

David, when I said "Not sure what you are asking" I was replying to Jaime. I still can't find any documentation either way, except for this strange case of the Ford. I emailed the instructor that comes here and he said "they taught that (key off) in the 80's but they also taught us to wear grounding straps to remove modules". The scan tool is going to, basically, butt into the conversations

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Bob Owner/Technician
East Longmeadow, Massachusetts
Bob
 

The one thing that does seem to be in service info is to make sure the key is off when disconnecting or connecting modules. I believe this is to prevent unwanted voltage spikes among other things and it probably applies to plugging in scanners too. After all, the scanner is just another module.

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded
Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff
 

We would need some engineers to chime in here, but until the scan tool tries to figure out what type of bus it is connected to and starts polling (trolling?...LOL) through network traffic, or attempts to address a module, I believe it is essentially dormant. And of course it can't do any of that with the key off. Never seen the Tech 2 Class 2 data monitor say "I see a scan tool module on MY

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Jaime Diagnostician
Ocala, Florida
Jaime
 

For the record Geoff (and Bob, and all), "We would need some engineers to chime in here, but until the scan tool tries to figure out what type of bus it is connected to and starts polling (trolling?...LOL) through network traffic, or attempts to address a module, I believe it is essentially dormant. And of course it can't do any of that with the key off.". Well, I'm not an engineer (don't have

+3 Ð Bounty Awarded
Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff
 

Too funny; "Create all sessions Key On" :-) Thanks Jaime!!!

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Chris Technical Support Specialist
Commack, New York
Chris
 

Creating a session is not just connecting the scan tool. There are Ford cars that monitor can networks for intrusion and can disable a car if the network is compromised, but this is typically to prevent theft. If a scan tool is hooked up with an armed system, it will sound the alarm.

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Jaime Diagnostician
Ocala, Florida
Jaime
 

When using Ford IDS software, you create a "Session" once the vehicle is completely identified by the software. In other words, once you reach the confirmation screen which typically displays a partial VIN and you confirm the vehicle (press the "YES" button), a "Session" is established. Previous sessions can be recalled unless they've been deleted (which must be done manually). In a session

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
David Owner
Cambridge, United Kingdom
David
 

Jaime - Love it! Sounds a bit like 'safe' sex....even then you're never quite sure !

+2 Ð Bounty Awarded
David Owner
Cambridge, United Kingdom
David
   

Geoff, Thanks! Sometimes these threads don't appear to follow a logical sequence which throws some confusion into to debate! I didn't mention the grounding straps as it seems to have disappeared from more recent teaching, but you're absolutely right, this is what was taught. Further, I would never have removed or reconnected a module with the ignition on, though it seems its OK to disconnect

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded
Jaime Diagnostician
Ocala, Florida
Jaime
 

David, Your statement is accurate when you wrote "However, my interpretation - which I accept could be wrong - is that the scan tool could become a node AFTER the ignition was switched on, thus sticking to what has always seemed to me to be a logical and safe approach.". The scanner is actually "pinged" by the gateway module in some cars when the ignition is turned to the RUN position, then it

+3 Ð Bounty Awarded
David Owner
Cambridge, United Kingdom
David
   

Thank you Jaime Lazarus. I don't like being pedantic, or feeling the need to justify, but sometimes some people come across as aggressive, and/or imply that others are complete fools or that they are talking rubbish. It's comforting to be acknowledged, especially when you are only trying to share knowledge and experience gained over a long period of time. My current role - or one of them -

+2 Ð Bounty Awarded
Jaime Diagnostician
Ocala, Florida
Jaime
 

David, it's an honor to be associated with you, a life-long student apparently. I hope you know there is no one in this group so judgemental that they would criticize. Debate, discuss, etc., yes maybe. lol I look forward to your contributions as I'm sure are the rest of us, and I suspect I'll be able to pursue my hobby of life-long learning by stories you will share.

+2 Ð Bounty Awarded
David Owner
Cambridge, United Kingdom
David
 

Jaime. Thank you for your kind words. On my own website I say that learning should be fun. For me it has been, even if I've struggled to get my head around much of it - especially more recently, when I have very little access to problematic vehicles. It seems there are a good number of very knowledgeable and motivated people in the group. I applied to subscribe to it after reading some publicity

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded
Jaime Diagnostician
Ocala, Florida
Jaime
 

In every one of my classes in which the discussion may include the use of a scanner, I have stressed the importance of following proper protocol. Never attach to or disconnect from a DLC connector when the ignition switch is in any position but off. I've explained in the past that the potential for spiking a module exists, but lately, with networks being like they are, it's just as important

+3 Ð Bounty Awarded
David Owner
Cambridge, United Kingdom
David
 

Good to hear that I'm not talking out of my rear after 52 years in the trade :)

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff
 

52 years, hmmmmm, Maybe they only explained how to plug it in, when scan tools were first invented. :-)

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded
David Owner
Cambridge, United Kingdom
David
 

Time flies! Actually, they didn't explain "how to plug it in" since they had not at that time located the DLC! It was then mostly found between one's ears! I'm not here to teach techs, or to proclaim that I know better than anyone else: far from it. And I don't. And I support continued learning, and I stand to be corrected when wrong - or when 'rules' may no longer apply! I 'love' this trade and

+2 Ð Bounty Awarded
Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff
 

Not sure I understand what you are asking. Common sense says not to yank it OUT in the middle of bi-directional testing, but often times I am working on intermittent issues and absolutely do not want to cycle the ignition before getting the scan tool hooked-up, for fear of losing/fixing the fault. Since more and more scan tools try to auto ID the second they are plugged in, it seems to me the

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded
Eric Owner/Technician
Edgerton, Wisconsin
Eric
 

Every training class I've been to about using scanners tells you to have the ignition off when you connect the scan tool to the DLC.

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded
Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff
 

Interesting. Every class I have been to has never mentioned it either way.

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Andrew Technician
Midland, Texas
Andrew
 

I agree I been to multiple classes . I went through a cummins class not the other day and never mentioned it. It is such a simple mistake. I couldn't of been the first or last to turn the key to the on position and plug into the dlc connector before ignition is turned on. I'm just glad it was a silly mistake on my part.

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff
 

and since some newer tools immediately attempt to auto-ID the vehicle, it seems they expect us to have the key on.

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Glen Owner/Technician
Arthur, Illinois
Glen
 

Andrew, So did you follow the SSM or did you just connect the VCMII with the key off to get communication to work on this vehicle?

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Andrew Technician
Midland, Texas
Andrew
 

Just plugged it in with the key off. The following day of course and no problems. All functions worked. Even a guy with 9 years experience can make a rookie mistake. I'm very thankful for everyone chiming in.

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded
Bob Owner/Technician
East Longmeadow, Massachusetts
Bob
 

At the last TST Big Event Bernie Thompson did a network class and explained how connecting/disconnecting a scanner with the key on in certain volvos will set numerous network codes and can shut down modules. He explained that connecting the tool in that manner causes ringing on the bus and scrambles the data. I don't think we can ever assume that just because we have never experienced a

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded
Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff
 

The longer I do this stuff the more I realize auto repair procedures are more like movie trivia than traffic laws. Completely random. I looked back and forth (and back!!) through the Tech 2 user manual yesterday and it does not say when (or even if) you should turn the key on.

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Bob Owner/Technician
East Longmeadow, Massachusetts
Bob
 

I don't mind admitting that I frequently connect and disconnect to the DLC with the key on and to date I have had no problems, but as the network systems in the cars get increasingly complex, this could be more of an issue. I'm thinking its probably a good idea to start practicing safe scanning before I stick my connector into a DLC I may regret later.

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded
Jaime Diagnostician
Ocala, Florida
Jaime
 

I haven't had time to locate and share what you did Mike. Thanks.

0 Ð Bounty Awarded
Chris Technical Support Specialist
Commack, New York
Chris
 

Mike you beat me to it. I have also seen this on full size transit vehicles. Key off, then hookup, and it should be fine. This is something common to newer vehicles. You can even trigger an alarm it a sleeping module detects a new module online, it may trigger vehicle alarms. With the contaminated DEF, if it wasn't water added to it, be weary of future SCR issues. Any type of HC contamination

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Randy Curriculum Developer
Raleigh, North Carolina
Randy
 

Now there is an example of "Information fixes vehicles". Really shows the purpose and value of DIAG​.​Net and other collaborative groups like it . Thanks all.

+4 Ð Bounty Awarded
Thomas Technician
Manassas Park, Virginia
Thomas
 

I know some ford vehicles now will only use FDRS scan tool

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Chris Technical Support Specialist
Commack, New York
Chris
   

the 2018 MY was the beginning of FDRS support. FJDS in 2018 is full function IDS with a J box. I have not tested it on a FDRS vehicle yet, but there are R2R requirements that mandate it have factory level support. FDRS Vehicles Ford NA 2018 Expedition 2018 Navigator 2018 EcoSport I figure each new model/body change from this point forward will likely be FDRS but FDRS subscription is included

+2 Ð Bounty Awarded
Randy Curriculum Developer
Raleigh, North Carolina
Randy
   

From Motorcraftservice​.​com "Ford J2534 Diagnostic Software (FJDS) - The factory Ford Motor Company vehicle diagnostic tool designed for use with J2534 compatible Vehicle Communications Interfaces (VCI). FJDS software provides module reprogramming software (FMP) that covers 1996 to present Ford, Lincoln, Mercury module reprogramming functions, plus complete dealership level vehicle diagnostic

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded
Chris Technical Support Specialist
Commack, New York
Chris
 

I was speaking more of if you used the FJDS software on a vehicle that requires FDRS. I have not tried that yet, but assume it would work well. FDRS's downfall is the need for downloads for each diagnostic module requiring internet connection while diagnosing. IDS and FJDS don't require it unless programming. I have not had enough FDRS experience to know if FDRS has additional capability over

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Randy Curriculum Developer
Raleigh, North Carolina
Randy
 

Understand and agree. WiTech2.0 has similar connectivity requirements as I'm sure you know.

+1 Ð Bounty Awarded