09 Caravan 3.3 No Pcm Comm After 2 Modules?

Elisha Technician Odessa, Texas Posted   Latest   Bounty  
Bounty Ð3
Driveability
Electrical
2009 Dodge Grand Caravan C/V 3.3L (E EGV) 4-spd (41TE)—2D4HN11E39R697593
No Crank / No Start
Security Theft / No Start

This Caravan was brought to us from a small car lot to fix. Someone took out the PCM and engine wiring harness when the dealer got a hold of it. We replaced the harness with a used one and the PCM with a plug-n-play style. I don't really do Chrysler vehicles when it comes to programming, reason being because of what i've heard about the troubles. But i am willing to learn. Anyways i connected the scanner to the van to delete codes and try to start it, since it's a plug-n-play. I had COM to the rest of the modules except the PCM/TCM. So i started to check for Powers, Grounds, 5 Volt Ref and CAN lines. All tested good. So i called a faulty PCM and ordered a new one, plug-n-play. I installed the PCM and same problem. So now i started to think what is going on here, Could i have two faulty units? So this time i decided to scope the CAN at the PCM and found a decent or good waveform. With voltages between 5 volts total. I found that a bit strange, a good waveform on a faulty unit? So i went and rechecked my wiring again and found my 5 VREF at 4.88. I decided to wiggle the engine harnes and found a ground that was not bolted. Another tech did the harness, not me. I bolted it and noticed the voltage go up slightly to 4.95. So i am stumped at this point. Are some vehicles just that finicky that they require exactly 5 volts or more? Or is there another procedure that im not doing after installing the PCM. I am not that familiar with Chrysler stuff, to a point. I can reprogram Fords and GM's with ease. I am the only one at the shop that the electrical and driveability stuff gets thrown at. I am not tooting my horn or anything because i DO NOT KNOW IT ALL. I realized that in this profession you learn Daily. Any tips would be greatly apreciated. See ATTACHED FILES. Thank you. 

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Saifullah Diagnostician
Ottawa, Ontario
Saifullah Default
 

The 5volt ref circuit is not your issue. My favourite quick test for comm issues is running a CAN overlay from the tipm (which I believe is the gateway) to the PCM. Then try to communicate with the PCM. Let me know the result. Also check all powers and grounds for PCM. Have you double checked that the used harness pins match up correctly?

+1 Default Ð3 Bounty Awarded
Michael Mobile Technician
Clinton, Utah
Michael Default
 

Elisha, With no crank, no start the 5v reference would be something I would look at later down the line. It is close enough that the sensors should work. You have modules reporting no comm with PCM. This is where I would start. Get the PCM talking and you can start to gain some ground. (BTW, pre programmed PCMs can be a misnomer. It can mean the latest software is loaded and the VIN is…

+2 Default Ð3 Bounty Awarded
Ken Owner/Technician
Montclair, New Jersey
Ken Default
 

Yep I had just mentioned the TIPM. He mentioned he got a new harness and PCM. It might not be the correct harness since a few models came with an integrated TIPM.

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Glenn Owner/Technician
New Sharon, Maine
Glenn Default
 

If you have a pass through device see which modules are communicating through chrysler tech connect. Looks like a communication issue. Eliminate wires and modules by what is communicating on the network.

0 Default Ð3 Bounty Awarded
Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Default
 

Glenn i have somewhat of a pass through device a J2534 at my disposal. But i doubt i will have that many features since it's not the Factory scan tool.

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Ken Owner/Technician
Montclair, New Jersey
Ken Default
 

What about the TIPM? Some of those models came with a harnesss integrated tipm and some the TIPM was separate. That thing can cause the no comm issue.

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Dave Mobile Technician
Ironton, Ohio
Dave Default
   

Edited because I had a brain fart. I agree with the statements made by others that the pcm communicates through the tipm. The com line to the dlc is diagnostic CAN only for the scan tool.

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Ken Owner/Technician
Montclair, New Jersey
Ken Default
   

He can't write the VIN if no comms to the PCM. Those errors are there because the PCM basically doesn't exist.

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Todd Mobile Technician
Morinville, Alberta
Todd Default
 

IF the network is intact and functioning at the PCM and IF the powers and grounds are good,then the PCM is faulty or it is incorrect for the application. You do not have a complete network failure,as is evidenced by your scan. The PCM should communicate whether it is programmed or not, or whether it has been married to the immobilizer. I am curious about the " plug and play" modules you have…

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Manuel Diagnostician
Newark, New Jersey
Manuel Default
   

I believe I had a similar issue with later model 3.3 a few years ago harness changed no communication to pcm. Iirc harness differences with pin outs were the issue But I’d have to check my notes to confirm. Get part number off harness and pcm tag and post them to confirm proper fiitment please

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Todd Mobile Technician
Morinville, Alberta
Todd Default
 

If this thing is a 2009 its CAN. If it got a 2007 or earlier NGC controller its SCI . I can't help but think the module is incorrect or he is testing powers and grounds incorrectly.

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Caleb Diagnostician
Mishawaka, Indiana
Caleb Default
 

If you dont mind me asking how are you testing powers and grounds at the PCM? Load testing with at least 3-5 amp bulb while the PCM is connected, or with a DVOM an the PCM unplugged? Are you also checking any ignition feeds into the PCM? Those tend to get overlooked. Also 4.95 KOEO is fine. You may see like 5.1 or 5.2 volts with the car running. Remember modules use the battery voltage coming in…

+1 Default Ð3 Bounty Awarded
Francisco Diagnostician
San Luis, Mexico
Francisco Default
 

Elisha,since the TIPM is saying there's no communication with PCM,i'd have to make sure the wiring harness is the correct one​.​Was it obtained from the dealer or from a donor vehicle.? Then these plug n play modules have always been troublesome at least the ones for dodge so I'd be a bit suspicious there​.​another thing i notice is you have a vin mismatch and…

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Cory Owner
Wichita, Kansas
Cory Default
 

So I think that the tip is a good place to start but rather than buying new wouldn't a vehicle that made it all the way to the scene of the accident with good modules be a good place to start if you're procuring the PCM from the same place just try to fit one from the Savage and see if you have communication. I don't recommend you trying a tip from a vehicle with a front-end Collision but I have…

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Francisco Diagnostician
San Luis, Mexico
Francisco Default
 

Yes agree.I was gonna suggest that myself to try a used one if available but forgot to mention it​.​but since he said someone had taken out the wiring harness and pcm before he got the vehicle​.​he has to somehow eliminate that the computer is actually not communicating like maybe bench testing it. Then that will tell you what direction to take next. Hope he updates. Have…

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Default
   

Cory i would go and try to develop a relationship with the Junk/ Salvage yards. But the biggest one in town with the most selection has a Google rating of 1.6 stars. He is hard to deal with sometimes.

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Cory Owner
Wichita, Kansas
Cory Default
 

I don't drink myself but maybe a bottle of Jack later on in the day would help open that relationship you may even get on Facebook and see what is likes and dislikes are before you go open your mouth after a couple shots of Jack!

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Jeremy Technical Support Specialist
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Jeremy Default
 

Did you check power and grounds at the PCM with connector 1 plugged in or unplugged? If it was unplugged did you load test the power and grounds using a headlamp. Are you sure you checked pins 10, 11, 12, and 29 for B+ with the key on and pins 9 and 18 for ground? Are you sure you had about 2.5 volts on each CAN C wire in pins 34 and 35?

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Update
 

Ok fellows. I will try to provide INFORMATION to those that have requested it soon. Right now they pulled me off this van to help on a couple other cars. I really do appreciate the feedback to every one.

0 Update Ð3 Bounty Awarded
Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Update
   

UPDATE: I had an opportunity to go back and re-check my wiring again. And to get some info for a few of you that have requested it. Caleb Mohler and Todd Huggard suggested to load test Powers, Grounds and Ignition feed circuits. I tested them with the power probe 4 and did a load test with a test light with an incandescent bulb. They checked out good, so i didn't get burned on that. I scoped the…

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Saifullah Diagnostician
Ottawa, Ontario
Saifullah Default
 

Just because a waveform looks good, does not mean it's good. Why don't you listen to my first post? Please explain why my suggestion is a bad idea??? This network is garbage. You guys ask for help and don't even take the advice! What the hell is the point??? If it was a stupid suggestion, I get it. But seems pretty damn solid. Will rule out a lot. This network is crap. I'm done. Pce

-10 Default Ð3 Bounty Awarded
Unprofessional
Todd Mobile Technician
Morinville, Alberta
Todd Default
   

I don't know if you're still around, but if the guy had CAN activity at the correct terminals and all the CAN C modules were coding against the PCM, it would seem that a network issue can be ruled out. You want to perform a " bypass" of sorts to rule out wiring, I get it. Not everyone listens to everyone. No need to get pissy. There is another thread about some ancient landrover and the guy…

+3 Default Ð3 Bounty Awarded
Agree
Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Default
   

I understand your frustration and i apologize. I noticed you were the first one to reply and i appreciate it. As i was writing my update i was thinking about what you were suggesting and thought about replying to you. But i did not. I am fairly new to this scope stuff. I can somewhat understand some basics i believe. I did not go to school for this to become a technichian. I learned a lot and i…

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Dave Mobile Technician
Ironton, Ohio
Dave Default
 

Very nice reply ,Elisha. Good luck to you and never quit learning.

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Update
 

I kinda want to point to another faulty PCM? It is a possibilty. We once had a MINI in here that took 3 alternators to get it running.

0 Update Ð3 Bounty Awarded
Todd Mobile Technician
Morinville, Alberta
Todd Default
 

This is where I'm at with your vehicle. You're CAN waveform is textbook , you don't have a complete network failure. You only have one module not communicating for whatever reason. Powers and grounds have been load tested. The only thing is you have no part #, or tag on the module, this is the unknown that requires an answer. Be right back.

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Saifullah Diagnostician
Ottawa, Ontario
Saifullah Default
 

Wave forms can look good but still have high resistance. That's why I find the overlay, the best way to see if you have resistance in the circuit. I did also mention that the pins may not be correct. How the hell are you tech support? You gotta think outside the box. And that thing about this albin dude, who cares if he didnt speak up. That's him, not me buddy.

-12 Default Ð3 Bounty Awarded
Unprofessional
Inappropriate
Todd Mobile Technician
Morinville, Alberta
Todd Default
 

Not faulty, incorrect module. If the module is from a 2007 or earlier, it will connect up and not crash your CAN because the CAN is on C1 , 34 and 35. On the 07 NGC, C1 34 and 35 are CMP and CKP signals respectively. I dont think that would hurt your comm lines. Verify the module is correct for the application.

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Jeremy Technical Support Specialist
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Jeremy Default
 

It would be nice if he would post a pic of his C1 connector or confirmed the pins that he checked PAGC on....

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Francisco Diagnostician
San Luis, Mexico
Francisco Default
 

Saifullah,take a deep breath there my friend​.​there's other ways to get your piont across​.​were all here to help eachother as much or little as we can​.​at least the o. P. Is updating and stuff and is trying to get to everyone​.​in time you will see who are the ones who appreciate the help that is offered​.​Elisha seems to appreciate…

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Update
 

UPDATE: Ok so here are some pictures of the C1 connector for Jeremy Wilkin. I did not quite understand the term "Overlay" that Saifullah talked about. But i may have picked up from Todd about bypassing the wiring. So i cut into the harness about 6-7 inches from the connectors on each end, and used some jumper wires. To give the benefit of the doubt to Siafullah because i was intrigued by what he…

0 Update Ð3 Bounty Awarded
Jeremy Technical Support Specialist
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Jeremy Default
 

Perfect, thanks for attaching those images.

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Kevin Technician
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Kevin Default
 

Ok this is what I suspect … If you checked your powers and grounds to the pcm and checked the can lines to the PCM and checked to make sure no 5 Volt reference sensor has shorted. and its all good yet you still have no communication..... This is what I suspect When you install a new "Generic"..cough cough… Blank PCM into a Chrysler with the Factory tool the scan tool will ask you to enter the…

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Helpful
Todd Mobile Technician
Morinville, Alberta
Todd Default
 

Kevin,I never thought outside using the factory tool. Perhaps his aftermarket took can't ID it because it does not have the VIN written or it is unprogrammed.

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Default
 

Could possibly be Todd. I hope so because this is a good one.

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Default
 

Well from what you are saying Kevin somehow it kinda makes a little sense to me. Since i am eliminating all my wiring at the moment. I don't have the factory tool sadly, but i do have a J2534 and a laptop. I does not hurt to try and see if can get somewhere with it. Thank you for your feedback.

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Mike Mobile Technician
Charleston, South Carolina
Mike Default
 

Interesting thought. I've never tried but if that was the case I wonder if you could get data or codes out of it with a generic code reader just to establish comm?

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Bill Owner
Las Vegas, Nevada
Bill Default
 

In my personal experience, when I have one module that is not communicating on the network, I take that module out of the vehicle and strap it to the bench. I find the power and ground distribution to ensure that the module is powered correctly, and then I find the communication wires and plug it into the bench DLC. With the module isolated from the network, and powered correctly, I then see if…

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Default
 

Well Bill i wish i could do that but i think you need special equipment so it seems. Would be nice to get into that!

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Update
 

UPDATE: Well i talked to the supplier of the PCM i got and they told me to ship it in. I'll have to wait in the meanwhile. But i will put the first PCM i got that was Plug-N-Play in the van and try using a J2534 box to see if i may get somewhere. Thanks to Kevins feedback and to Everyone elses as well. Stay tuned...

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Tanner Instructor
Wellford, South Carolina
Tanner Default
 

I have a couple quick questions in regards to this vehicle. Where was the harness sourced from? Also where did the PCM come from?

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Default
 

Tanner the harness was bought online on ebay i believe and the PCM is sourced from Protech Auto Systems. I have purchased a few modules from them and i have not been disappointed, they have good customer service as well.

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Tanner Instructor
Wellford, South Carolina
Tanner Default
 

I am more concerned with the harness at this point. Your vin decodes as a CV which is pretty rare in comparison to a normal caravan. My thoughts are the harness May have pins in a different location or 1 pin that is missing, etc. Chrysler usually is one of the worst as far as diagrams being correct so say you are checking each pin in the pcm connector vs what the diagram shows. If the diagram is…

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Jaime Diagnostician
Ocala, Florida
Jaime Default
 

If not already suggested, with the key OFF, disconnect all HO2Ss. Turn the key on and see if you can now communicate with the PCM.

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Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff Default
 

I think I missed that story Jaime. Did you ever write it up?

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Jaime Diagnostician
Ocala, Florida
Jaime Default
 

No Geoff, I never did do an article about THAT hard-earned lesson.

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Default
 

No it had not been suggested till you mentioned it Jaime. When i first read of what you are talking about i was intrigued! So i went and tried it but still the same no Comm. Seems you had an experience before.

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Jaime Diagnostician
Ocala, Florida
Jaime Default
 

Short story: I had one with the injector harness insulation disintegration problem and once that was repaired (used harness), I still had no MIL, no crank and no communication. I eventually realized there was no 5 V Ref too. By luck while researching the problem, I had saved a magazine article from MANY years past that mentioned a shorted O2 Sensor could cause a PCM to enter "Self-Protect" mode…

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Mats Technical Support Specialist
Umeå, Sweden
Mats Default
 

Hi ! Check out this link cardiagn​.​com/electronic-con…

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Default
 

Thank you Mats i appreciate your link. I checked it out. It reminds me of Fords programming procedure steps, very similar.

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Update
 

UPDATE: So i am still waiting to hear from the PCM supplier, should have a response Lord willing in a few days. In the meanwhile i went on an Odessy trying to get access to Chrysler's software for the J2534 aplication. After a blood sample, Biometric scan and a background check i was able to use the J2534 Witech 2.0 interface. But it does not look good so far, Judge for yourselves with these…

0 Update Ð3 Bounty Awarded
Caleb Diagnostician
Mishawaka, Indiana
Caleb Default
 

Nice work getting Witech up an running! So the modules in gray the vehicle is not equipped with. The car appears to be a base model. The modules in yellow are communicating but have codes stored in them. The module (PCM) in red means it's no comm which you already know. Can you post the code scan please? Please do not replace any other modules. They are yellow because they have faults in them an…

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Kevin Technician
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Kevin Default
 

Nice glad you got witech working... the fact you have a network topology that’s shows every other module communicating accept for the pcm it really narrows down your issue. I looked up your vin and wiring diagram according to TA and at the pcm connector 4 you should have ground on pins 12,13,14 .... since you mentioned you have no ground wire on pin 12 ... this could be your issue... provide the…

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Kevin Technician
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Kevin Default
 

Actually on that Vehicle you don’t even need the TIPM to communicate with the PCM. See Video example

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Kevin Technician
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Kevin Default
 

Oh also one more thing... if you decide to try and communicate with the pcm out of the vehicle... don’t use WiTech, it will be looking for the TIPM and it will let you know the TIPM is non-responsive... and it will not allow you to continue until is see’s the TIPM. Just use an aftermarket tool like an Autel.

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Update
 

UPDATE: Well i contacted the distributor of the 2 PCM's we bought and he says that it is communicating. That is not good news for me, but i am not giving up. I like Kevins gear for testing the PCM's but i don't have that at the moment, except i do have a B.O.B. I just wonder if i could check the actuall PCM with just some jumper wires and not the TIPM with the B.O.B, but then i think about the 5…

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Caleb Diagnostician
Mishawaka, Indiana
Caleb Default
 

Can you just cut the CAN lines at the PCM an test for signal out of the PCM an report back??

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Default
 

Hey caleb, i thought that a few days ago and did it yesterday. I scoped it for a signal and i did not have anything coming from the PCM.

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Caleb Diagnostician
Mishawaka, Indiana
Caleb Default
 

Ok thanks so that proves the issue is not with the TIPM. Did you any voltage at all??

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Default
   

I am sorry Caleb i forgot to put that in yesterday. I did not get any voltage coming out of the PCM at the pins for COMM.

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Kerry Diagnostician
Springboro, Ohio
Kerry Default
 

Elisha, you have great persistence! Here are a few thoughts: I have not seen any mention of checking terminal tension. Do you have a few different sizes of probes or T-pins/needles that you could verify you don't have a deformed terminal by comparing to others that haven't been probed. Given the location of the pcm on that vehicle, its possible it could have been caused by the dismantler…

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Kerry Diagnostician
Springboro, Ohio
Kerry Default
 

Elisha, you have great persistence! Here are a few thoughts: I have not seen any mention of checking terminal tension. Do you have a few different sizes of probes or T-pins/needles that you could verify you don't have a deformed terminal by comparing to others that haven't been probed. Given the location of the pcm on that vehicle, its possible it could have been caused by the dismantler…

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Default
 

Thank you Kerry. So i went around and checked the tension on the pins with a terminal lead out of my tester kit and they had proper tension. Nothing out of the ordinary with a visual inspection. But there is an issue or descrepancies on the ASD circuitry. As i was checking the voltage on the pins that you had suggested, i noticed the voltage on C1/38, C3/19 and C3/28 was around 1.5-2.2. That is…

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Geoff Diagnostician
Lahaina, Hawaii
Geoff Default
   

Typically, classic Chrysler design has the ASD Relay sending power to the injectors and the fuel pump relay, when the ECM turns it on. And it is only turned on briefly at KOEO, then not turned on again until the PCM sees RPM. There is always a scan tool function to turn the ASD Relay ON....but you have no comm w/PCM so.... I notice it looks like you are using the color-by-number diagrams. I…

0 Default Ð3 Bounty Awarded
Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Update
 

UPDATE:So after Caleb Mohler asked me if i was getting any voltage out of the PCM after cutting the CAN wires i tested it and was not getting anything. So i was curious about it as to how much voltage i was supposed to get coming out of the PCM and not the TIPM. I went ahead and cut the wires near the PCM on my 06 Jeep Commander as a guinea pig to test my doubt. I found that i was getting around…

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Caleb Diagnostician
Mishawaka, Indiana
Caleb Default
 

I apologize. Nice work btw. I assumed you knew why I had you do that test. The reason is that we are back to power, ground or terminal tension issue at the PCM. Because there is no voltage out on the CAN lines this proves for some reason the CAN portion of the PCM is not being woke up I believe there was talk in this chain of your harness missing a ground at the PCM. Has this ground been added…

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Elisha Technician
Odessa, Texas
Elisha Default
 

Thank you Caleb .Actually on the back of C4 where pin #12 GND is supposed to be, it had to be drilled because the was no opening available. But yes i temporarily grounded that circuit and still had the same issue. Please look at the response for Kerry as well, to see if this may also be affecting it please.

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