No start

Jason Owner/Technician Pennsylvania Posted   Latest  
Resolved
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2014 Kia Sorento LX 2.4L (6) 6-spd (A6LF2) — 5XYKTCA62EG476465
No Start After Engine Replacement
No Codes

Vehicle has cam and crank signals. All high control injectors scoped and are good. 1500 psi of fuel fressure by scan data. Vehicle will start and run fine if i introduce starting fluid. Thank you for any help

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Eric Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Eric Default
 

New/used engine? Fuel quality? What was the reason for replacing the engine? Do the injectors open? Have you scoped the injectors during cranking and when the vehicle is running on starting fluid to make sure the PCM is properly controlling them? Sorry, no silver bullets today, used them all up yesterday and forgot to reload at home last night, you're going to have to do some testing and get…

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Jason Owner/Technician
Pennsylvania
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The bottom end came through the oil pan. It is a used engine. I did scope cam, crank and injectors cranking but not while running on starting fluid. Fuel was exceptionally low so i did add 5 gallons.

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Eric Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
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Jason, Did you check fuel pressure and volume from the low pressure fuel pump? Did you check the high fuel pressure KOEO first time in the day to see if the pressure PID reads 0 or very low? Then crank the engine over while monitoring the high fuel pressure PID to see if it is actually rising? The high fuel pressure you are seeing on the scanner could be a substituted value. Scope the fuel…

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Jason Owner/Technician
Pennsylvania
Jason Default
 

Ty Eric, I did verify low pressure and volume. Fills a 16oz bottle in a matter of seconds. The high pressure pid does change to about 1200 from 1500 when cranking. I will look at the high pressure pid in the morning, just had a really busy day with not much time on this vehicle today. I originally was using the original high pressure pump but did switch it to one that came with the used engine…

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Caleb Diagnostician
Indiana
Caleb Default
 

Put a WPS500 in any cylinder and make sure the spark timing is correct. Also Alldata , Idfix etc will have known good timing position waveforms under like a P0016 or P0017 DTC troubleshooting sheet from Hyundai/Kia themselves. Look for it. You will find it.

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Jason Owner/Technician
Pennsylvania
Jason Default
 

I currently and unfortunately do not own one

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Caleb Diagnostician
Indiana
Caleb Default
 

No problem did you check cam crank correlation yet?

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Eric Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Eric Default
 

Hi Caleb, Could you please explain your reason for wanting him to check the cam/crank correlation if the vehicle starts and runs fine on an alternative fuel source? Thanks, Eric

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Geoff Diagnostician
Hawaii
Geoff Default
 

Eric, Step 1 in Millennial No-Start Diag is to buy a PicoScope and get a cam vs. crank waveform. LOL

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Funny
Caleb Diagnostician
Indiana
Caleb Default
 

I am sorry Geoff. I meant that as a response to Erics question about cam crank correlation. And Geoff I assume you are making a joke about millenials. I am not offended. However I do know for a fact there are many cars I would have taken a lot longer to fix without a scope!

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Geoff Diagnostician
Hawaii
Geoff Default
   

Yes, it was a joke. That's great your scope has helped you. However, what myself and many others have observed, is that a lot of younger guys are skipping over all the scan data, freeze frame, thorough visual inspection, and the TSB's, that would have found the problem, because they see all the YouTube videos where a scope found some obscure problem, and think they have to scope everything…

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Caleb Diagnostician
Indiana
Caleb Default
 

Simply because he said that he already checked cam an crank signals with scope. Why not spend another 2 min to check the correlation and then you know your good? What if there is a reluctor difference on the replacement engine causing the injectors to fire at the wrong time. Likely? No, but he does not really seem to be getting anywere otherwise so might as well. I dont say that in a derogatory…

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Eric Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Eric Default
 

I guess when he stated "It is a used engine. I did scope cam, crank and injectors cranking but not while running on starting fluid" I thought two things, the engine runs properly and while he didn't state he did I would expect him to have compared the scope captures to a known good set. There are a lot of things I don't understand about this post. He installed a used engine but transferred…

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Jason Owner/Technician
Pennsylvania
Jason Default
   

Eric what i meant was i installed cam sensors, VVT solenoids, throttle body, map, ignition coils to the new engine. Ive always done this so i have no liability to them from installing used ones from the purchased used engine. The cranshaft sensor from the original engine was damaged in the original engine when cylinder 4 destructed. I actually compared the scope captures to the cam and crank…

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Eric Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Eric Default
 

Jason, You didn't mention if you transferred the fuel injectors from the original engine to the used engine. If not then the used injectors could be stuck shut from contaminated fuel or bad/old fuel. If you have a scope pattern that shows the injectors are being powered and the engine will run on an alternative fuel source then for some reason the fuel isn't being delivered to the cylinders or…

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Jason Owner/Technician
Pennsylvania
Jason Default
 

I did you’re fuel pressure test with the low side disconnectEd and it drops down to 20psi after a few cranks and immediately back up to 1300 psi once connected. Originally I did leave the injectors that came with the yard engine in but switched them to the vehicles injectors because I thought that was the issue. I do not have WiFi right now because of storms but am going to attach screenshots…

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Geoff Diagnostician
Hawaii
Geoff Default
 

Eric, Maybe that new fuel is just floating on water. :-)

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Geoff Diagnostician
Hawaii
Geoff Default
 

Can you clarify if starting fluid just starts it running, and then it runs on it's own, or if it only runs as you continue to spray? What do IAT and ECT read?

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Jason Owner/Technician
Pennsylvania
Jason Default
 

They both read ambient and starter fluid will start it but I have to continue spraying in order to keep it running

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Thanks
Michael Mechanic
Texas
Michael Default
 

Is the engine harness original to car or is it original to engine?

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Jason Owner/Technician
Pennsylvania
Jason Default
 

Everything is original to the car except the crank sensor because it was destroyed. It is an oem sensor

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Michael Mechanic
Texas
Michael Default
 

Continuity through wires and and connector terminals @ said sensor...?

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Jason Owner/Technician
Pennsylvania
Jason Default
 

It is very hard, almost impossible to get to the injector or even backside of the fuel injection harness on this vehicle. I think tomorrow I will also remove the intake and try to reroute the harness to test on the backside of the main fuel injection harness.

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Michael Mechanic
Texas
Michael Default
 

You said the crank sensor was destroyed... I was wondering if the damage continued into the connector terminals... does the vehicle have a tach & does it work? If ecm is not getting signal the engine is rotating, possibly it is not telling the injectors to function.....?

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Jason Owner/Technician
Pennsylvania
Jason Default
 

This setup has a 6inch wire before it connects into the vehicle harness. The damage Done to the sensor was inside the block.

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Geoff Diagnostician
Hawaii
Geoff Default
 

How sure are you that the engine is from the EXACT same Kia? Also, any chance the injector wiring is crisscrossed? (I can't see the engine so IDK if that is possible.)

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Jason Owner/Technician
Pennsylvania
Jason Default
 

The engine is actually from a Sante Fe but have verified with dealer that they are identical. The vehicle and injector harness are from the original vehicle

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Michael Mechanic
Texas
Michael Default
 

I am having a no start issue right now with an older vehicle (96 jeep grand Cherokee) have tracked issue to the anti theft system (hopefully)... could you be having a key recognition problem? Reset possibly? I am not familiar with the vehicle... just throwing a little more mud on the wall to see what sticks...

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Jason Owner/Technician
Pennsylvania
Jason Default
 

I did think that As a possibility but there are no codes and I did a key relearn anyway

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Jason Owner/Technician
Pennsylvania
Jason Default
   

Geoff for the win! I was just goin to post we can call this one fixed. After back tracking my steps and also doin some good tests Eric recommended it just wasnt sitting right. I had the injectors firing while cranking and while running, could barely reach with a stethoscope but did and can hear clicking so it seemed to me they werent firing at the proper time. Removed the intake and compared…

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Thanks
Geoff Diagnostician
Hawaii
Geoff Default
 

I won?....Sweet! Great job Jason. You have followed up and stayed "in it" more than any poster I can think of. Too many times we offer suggestions and then the OP disappears. I am honestly as excited as you are to get this figured out!

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Agree
Jason Owner/Technician
Pennsylvania
Jason Default
   

I would never and look forward to being part of the community

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Eric Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Eric Default
 

Glad you got it figured out, not sure how you could have tested for that tech installed problem. I don't know of anyone scoping the injector signal and comparing it to the cylinder compression stroke yet, but I suppose that is something to think about. I don't swap much from the old to new engine when installing a used engine, but that is just the way I do it. Unless it looks damaged or leaking…

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Jason Owner/Technician
Pennsylvania
Jason Resolution
   

Thank you very much to all that took the time to help. Geoff for the win! I was just goin to post we can call this one fixed. After back tracking my steps and also doin some good tests Eric recommended it just wasnt sitting right. I had the injectors firing while cranking and while running, could barely reach with a stethoscope but did and can hear clicking so it seemed to me they werent firing…

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