What am I looking at as far as cost to be able to recalibrate these systems? Anyone out there In the aftermarket care to share tips on the tooling they are using
Adrean, I don't know much about ADAS yet, however… I have seen something recently put out by Autel. It appears to be fairly impressive and costs in the neighborhood of $15,000. USD If you'd like, I will gladly put you in touch with the gentleman who I've learned information from.
We are using only OE tools which is a much more expensive route to go but at this point we are doing from a both liability and reliability standpoint. If a system is calibrated and the vehicle is involved in an accident where the ADAS systems can be blamed then the next logical step for an attorney is to go after everyone involved with the prior repair. Additionally I believe that unless an
Here is a vehicle I saw yesterday with ADAS systems. The truck next to it is one of mine....a 1 ton Dodge that isn't small. Look at the cars around it. This vehicle has 24 inch wheels on it which has raised the vehicle 10 inches. Who do you think will be liable when it has an ADAS related accident? The owner reports that the lane keeping is much more sensitive (which she likes) working way
I think that you should start by reading this goo.gl/f4bQSy They lost because OE procedures were not followed. In today society, we need to be concerned with liability. If you do an ADAS cal and there is a collision after, you will most likely be sued. Like the John Eagle case, if you have not followed OE procedures, you have no defense. I would suggest using OE tooling and SI
Bob, thank you for the response. I don't work on a DAS systems as of yet. And I couldn't agree with you more, about having OE tooling and proper service information available. I was just simply sharing some information I had heard the other day in a class but didn't realize that it was not a valid substitute. I didn't mean to miss lead anyone
I too would not suggest using aftermarket tools until the industry catches up and the OE's approve aftermarket tools. There are several OE tools that look very similar to each other and can produce a passing result but this should also be avoided for the same reason Bob mentioned as well as not being exactly the same as the OE calls for. Although I believe these systems do a better job of
Paul, The idea that no aftermarket tools have been approved by the OEM is 100% false. The OEM specifies aftermarket tools from OTC, Kent Moore, Hunter and probably many more. The OTC "aftermarket" tool that I mentioned earlier is actually technically the OEM tool for Honda, Chrysler, and possibly Nissan (can't confirm Nissan at the moment). You can't honestly tell me that you would buy one of
Hi Mike, Sorry you have misunderstood what I and others mean by Aftermarket. In general the OE's do not make their own tools. They use companies like Kent Moore, OTC, Hunter, etc and have for decades. When I say OE tool I mean the tool listed in the OE's service information regardless of who the OE uses to make it. When I say aftermarket I mean companies that make tools that may look like
Has anyone gotten their hands on what's available from Autel yet? I have been buying only oem because that's all I can get my hands on. I would like to point out the precision (or lack there of) in these Honda radar targets. I have no doubt that I could create a version of these just as precise in my garage. I would assume in a courtroom my handmade tool would be measured against a handful of
*However what nobody is telling anyone is that most of this calibrations will not allow you to calibrate them
…However what nobody is telling everyone is that most of these calibrations will not allow you to calibrate them INcorrectly. Scott, it seems using the greater than and less than characters cuts a post off which I think may be an important function as when being used to express a voltage greater than 5v. Also, the ability to edit post would be great so that I can hide the fact that I am
Hi Mike, I have to disagree, many of these systems will allow you to show that the calibration has been successful yet the calibration is not correct. I have played with this on a few cars that will produce a passing result but are not correct and would be very dangerous. (of course this was for learning only)
Hi Paul, Could you expand on the specific systems alluded to here? Also, how would they be dangerous? What were the driving behaviors post manipulation? The ramifications of errors in specific systems may expand this conversation in a helpful direction it would seem. Jim
Hi Jim, I took Randy Briggs ADAS class at Vision. He had a case study by Andrew Gibson where the bracket was bent and the vehicle would activate braking due to on coming traffic. I would call that dangerous.
Paul, I have heard of this being done on a LDW system but I would be curious to know how you got it to pass. Assuming you had the targets positioned incorrectly how far off were they and what exactly was the symptom? Most of what I have seen will fail but I have no doubt it can be done wrong. When I was trying to learn these I watched this video of calibrating a lanewatch camera with a smaller
HiYa Mike, Of the ones I have purposely set up WRONG (for testing) were some Toyota systems, one Mazda and a few Honda's as well - The Toyota I have done both side object and front ACC. Honda's Side object detection as well as messing around with wrong positions of Lane Watch camera. The Mazda was side object detection. Most of the inaccuracy's that I can get to complete as passed have to do
When I was very unfamiliar with ADAS systems reading things like you have posted would scare me away from attempting to perform these calibrations. I could assume that if I had my targets off by a millimeter that I am going to cause a collision that could end people's lives. I absolutely agree that care must be taken and the procedures be performed correctly but in my experience the target
Hi Mike, With the height it only takes a few inches before you can see an issue, closer to a foot with floor location on SOD but ACC only takes a few inches as well. Anytime I have gotten over a foot or so out they wont even pick up the target unless the mounting surface is not properly placed (another mess that I know you are very familiar with). This may be a good time to ask others that do
Paul, I totally agree that accuracy of target placement is key. Can you elaborate how you determined the degree of inaccuracy and how it manifested in system operation? Was it DTC, warning message or symptom driven?
Not DTC's no - all were symptom issues. Some systems may eventually code but those that I was playing with did not during the time I was experimenting. There are however systems that will eventually code when the module(s) determine there is a calibration issue.
If I am reading this correctly..... You were able to do it wrong with the manufacturer recommended tools, right?
Yes, Keep in mind I was trying to get a passing result and have the system appear to be working properly yet not actually work correctly while using the OE tools. This was to prove to myself how important it is to do these calibrations 100% by the book. This was for testing only. The cars were then properly relearned.
I get it completely. I do think it puts the conversation about tools behind the conversation about process. I see it much like alignments in that regard. Understand the system and the why. The most important tool is still the tech.
You may be right as far as getting a passing result but having the proper approved OE tool has to be the start of doing it correctly. If not then when it goes wrong a lawyer, judge and jury will eat you alive.
Thought it might be interesting for some to see a few OE targets so I lined some up and took a picture - these are all OE tools, you can see many are very similar and as you suspect one could substitute another manufactures tool for another and get a passing result. What do you think a court would say if you did though? from left to right Subaru - Hyundai/Kia - Toyota/Lexus - Acura/Honda -
Could you give the group the technical variations between the two, seemingly identical radar targets and what rate of error would be induced by using a, vs b? What radar system is used on the vehicles?
No not really. The critical point is that when someone dies and you are sued will you be able to show you followed the OE manufactures procedure and used the OE tools? or will you say it doesn't matter what tool I used? I have a hard time believing you will walk away without penalty in the later situation. And how about simple piece of mind that you did not contribute to the death of anyone.
But in your honest opinion from what you have seen the calibration will not be correct when substituting these tools? I get the whole liability credibility portion but it would seem to me irrelevant what took brand you are using as long as the purposeful part of the took is correct. You can't really think that because you used the dealer branded took that you are covered under some sort of
I'm not sure why you arguing this point. The OEM si states to use a specific tool part number and specific scantool. Why screw around and use the wrong tool? If your business model does not support using the correct tooling than you should not be doing the jobs. Someone's life is in your hands. That's all that matters. We as professionals need to be the best at what we do and not cut corners
When we used an aftermarket tool to load the SDM key into a BCM was there not a potential for something to go wrong and the airbags be disabled which could put someone's life in our hands? It is frustrating to me that the general consensus is that we can't trust the aftermarket tools. The same tools that most of the mobile techs on here trusted to perform occupancy detection sensor relearns
Hi Mike To answer your question, the GM EL… Calibration matts and the Ford … Calibration matts are not the same or similar. I share in the opinion that that referencing OE service information and using the OE specific tooling listed in SI is the professional way to perform ADAS calibrations. I also strongly encourage photo documentation. Nobody “wants" to buy all the OE
Thanks Kirk, thanks for posting the documentation of the mats. You and your company are a great example of how a smaller company in a smaller market can accel though specialization in areas like ADAS. You have always given sage advice to others on this topic. As to the comment of uplifting and helping one another, I have NEVER met such a more professional person you was more giving of their
Hi Mike, I just happened to stumble on your comment. I'm trying to duplicate this and let's see if this works. Is this <5.0v or >4.9v?
This is a test of a problem that could be > we imagine or < an issue.......... Only a test. It let me get this far. Now to....
Yes I will give it a shot. I am not using the correct browser though. I'm using Microsoft Edge. <5.0v or >4.9v
Seems to be working now! Earlier it cut everything I had typed after the (<) off which I assumed was a coding issue.
So if I was a lawyer asking you if you followed OE procedures, do you think I could remove all your credibility since homemade or aftermarket targets are not part of the procedure? We all assume risk. I think using OE tools and SI limit the risk best as possible. As to printed targets, were they printed from OE or an AM SI supplier? I just think these are the questions that will or could come
My last class on law was 13 years ago so I may be misinformed (maybe we need some attorneys added to the Diag Network!) but let's say I have a homemade tool that was made identical to the Honda radar targets. I calibrate a vehicle which is later involved in an accident. Now the burden of proof lies on the plaintiff not to prove my credibility or that I did not use the OEM tool but to prove that
I disagree with the John Eagle case not relating to ADAS. The case was lost because OE procedures were not followed, not because the repair didn't work or was faulty. Given that, I can't see how it is not relatable. I've performed a few ADAS calibrations. A a company, I think we've done as many as 10 in a day, my number could be low. I've attended a couple ADAS classes and read numerous
But what you are telling people is that they must buy the OE tool and not use aftermarket. That is not correct. The OTC ACC alignment tool can be purchased as a Snap On branded tool from Snap On, an aftermarket company. I would assume the tool comes in the Autel kit as well. OTC, Snap On, etc. these companies are all aftermarket. None of the OEs comissioned Snap On to build the tool so you're
I'm not telling anyone they MUST use or buy OE. I'm saying that in the litigious society that we live in should make one think about what kind of liability they are willing to undertake. As far as you torque lug nuts, I think you are reaching. I've never come across OE SI that states to use X torque wrench. I have seen ADAS calibrations say to use X target and Y scan tool.
I forgot to answer your question on misinformation. One class said that Bosch was the OE. and that multiple OE's had signed off on the Bosch target system. As we all know Bosch is a contracted manufacturer, not the OE. To date, nobody at Bosch has been able to supply me with any OE sign off. Another class the instructor said that the BSM indicators in the mirrors only turned on if you used the
Bob If you're company was performing 10+ calibrations per day, and you were using OE tooling and service procedures than I can promise you that you would have been using Bosch tools. Take a close look at this ACC calibration tools label. It says Bosch (which owns OTC) right on the label and was purchased directly from Honda as an "approved" tool. I wouldn't suggest holding my breath waiting for
One other example is a 2017 Nissan Maxima with LDW. The light in the door near the mirror will glow if there is an object in the blind spot area and the turn signal is not on. When the turn signal is on and there is an object detected the light will flash and the audible chime will alert. In all, there are too many variations among OEs to make a blanket statement and I have since modified the
Randy, I would assume the class is always evolving. I was not trying to throw you under the bus. I was more pointing out that not all information is correct and we need to ask questions and challenge what is being presented.
No worries Bob. It's all good. I always feel that if class content is not worth challenging it's not much of a class. Thanks for your comments...
So if you could stop and read what I wrote, you'd see I said "Target System" when I said OE's have not signed off. If you're not aware, Bosch has a setup that incorporates all the targets. I'm guessing similar to what Autel is putting out. I believe the OE is the provider of how the component or system functions. The vendor then produces a product to fit the need. While Bosch produces many
You're stating that the Bosch "target system" is not approved by the manufacturers I guess? My comment about aftermarket ADAS units referred to replacement units from specifically from SMP. They have already hit the market and while I haven't seen one in person as of yet I'm sure it will be soon. You're going to refuse to calibrate them because they are not OE and liability liability, liability…
Mike, I apologize. I was giving information that myself and others have found concerning. You obviously know more and have done way more calibrations than myself, the company I work for and all the mobile guys I network with. At this point we are going to sit back and allow you to educate us with case studies and Youtube videos.
I agree with Bob on this. One of my employees is a EE who worked in Laser and Radar for over 20 years. Here is a link to a paper talking about static millimeter wave radar calibrations that you may find interesting. Although this is for different wav.elengths than automobiles use, the examples are above and below our wavelengths which typically fall between 71 and 81
Not every answer is correct for every make of vehicle it appears. At least one of the tools has more setup confirmation/verification than the method written in service procedure by the manufacturer. The method in service procedure has the shop printing targets and mounting them. The positioning is carried out using trigonometry. The aftermarket system has levels, lasers and rulers to position
Thanks for the Input . Brandon I had seen that adas autel setup but for the cost to avoid liability I would go oem then , since no aftermarkets are approved oem as of yet .
Hi Brandon and all, Thanks for the add Scott. I would echo what other mobile professionals specializing in collision center support have stated here, OEM tools and SI are my company's choice. Liability and professionalism is a large part of this decision for me. So much so that we photo document the procedure and store a copy. Respectfully I don't see people who reference the "John Eagle"
I often think of a great quote from a great trainer, Dave Scaler.... " It all depends on your tolerance for pain... " Liablity exposure when performing ADAS calibrations is a test of ones pain tolerance..... in which case i have low tolerance. Others using non OE remedies may have a higher tolerance than mine....and greater exposure to liablity. No one on the OE side is arguing that cannot be
As Bob, Rick and many others have already stated, you really need to consider the liability and your acceptance of liability and the probability(ies) of its manifestation(s). My concern with AM calibration systems, namely targets, is either of two things: 1) You calibrate a system using AM tools, the system performs the calibration improperly and ends up resulting in a collision where people