Wasn't aware post can be removed
This morning I had made a post with a demonstration, just before I took off for lunch. I did receive a reply not too long after the post, but than went about my day. Here at night I go to check up on it and long behold, it's nowhere to be found. I scrolled the main page and did not see it, I went to the category that I labeled it under and it was missing from there too. I decided to contact support and I was told that the post had been “downvoted” enough times to justify it being removed from the main page. I totally was unaware this was possible, and yes I now see that it's somewhat described about the voting system in the “help” section. But I found it shocking actually that members had the ability to basically remove post if they feel like doing so with no rhyme or reason. Maybe it's just me or because it happened to one of my post's, which ok no big deal, but it kinda leaves a bad taste in your mouth about the ability of anyone removing your post and keeping others that never even had a chance to see a post miss it. It reminds me of the craigslist days of “flagging” ads to removed or hide them.
pretty sure a lot of people have to downvote it, not just one or two will make it go away. Other sites are this way, if enough people in the community downvote it self moderates.
Edit: fwiw i just went to your profile and the link to that post was there. So the post still exists there. 2 votes seems a low threshold. I can only assume the point of the system is limit the number of less useful posts. Same reason why they don't want non professionals here. Clearly it needs to be improved. After all, people can comment on the validity/safety/effectiveness of a repair or…
yes I would agree is a very low threshold for sure, but I didn't even know about it, and didn't even know there was a threshold even to reach for all members to simply have the right to remove someone else's post that they paid a fee to be able to share on here some findings or some info or displaying anything? I was under the impression that we were all on here to post things , share things…
Thought it was an interesting post, although it may not have met the norm of a repaired and done job, it was interesting.
I thought it was pretty cool to find a pcm starter relay control cuircuit breakdown , and faulted driver that cant control the output voltage to the relay and ground for the relay and to send power to the relay from the key switch in the start position. It helped verify that the pats system was happy and the wiring to the starter relay was good and intact.
Just so you know, I didn't give you a down vote. The down votes were likely given because you appeared to state bypassing the neutral safety switch was ok in this case; and, worthy of sharing.
lol, thanks for that heads up Grant. And that statement of the neutral safety switch was incorrect. This truck didn't have one, it has a zf transmission with a TR switch (trans range) The trans is the same as in the BMW's and other models that have a mechatronic. If there was an issue with the range switch there would have been codes most likely and prndl display issues as well , or the biggest…
I don't recall the exact reply comments I saw. Before your post was taken down, I read some of the reply comments. The gist of the comments seemed to be that bypassing the neutral safety switch is a concern. I didn't have time to watch the video then nor evaluate the validity of the concerns. Just wanted to tell you what people were probably thinking that down voted your post.
yeah I can definitely see that side or mindset, which I totally get or understand. I guess my whole thing was that I thought was pretty ridiculous that these “downvotes” can take your post away, and it only takes 2, and just keep everyone else who has a right to read all post to form their own opinion about whatever post from seeing it, especially when we are paying to share things on a platform…
Is this the post in question ? diag.net/msg/m3mik8fry1… Still there ? Maybe downvotes simply push it down in the listings. Like search engines and other online systems ? I much prefer simple chronological order if that is the case.
So it is not removed and simply pushed down in “ranking” ? I dont use the main webpage so not sure if that is the case ? Searching for “sticky situation” has it show in the results for me.
Yes I guess it somehow gets pushed down , but not anywhere on the main page, nor on the topic group page…. because I had the one person respond and make a comment on the post, I had an actual trace via an email. that was the only way I found it at first because I hit the link to see if it was still even a real post or existed, and that's when it didn't make sense. I could pull it up via an email…
It gets removed , but not “erased” is what I'm assuming….. but that's exactly it, you only found it again after knowing about it because discussing that it got removed. It was no longer on the main page nor the topic group page. You never would have known about what was in the post if you didn't search and find it. For all the members that got on here after 12 noon eastern time or whenever it…
Gotcha. I upvoted it to a -1, a minute or so ago, to see if it would automatically show up on the main page. Unfortunately someone else evidently downvoted it since then so my test failed. More than a few sites for various uses, have automated ranking and filtering systems to try improve the quality of content. Unfortunately they often result in this type of un intended result. Bad design for…
You didn’t mention the things I brought up in our support conversations this afternoon, so I thought I would chime in here with some of those points, and address a couple others. - The cumulative threshold to hide a discussion from the homepage stream is currently -2. So that could be just 2 downvotes, or it could be 102 downvotes and 100 upvotes. Is it the best algorithm? Definitely not, but…
Cumulative.. An original post could have only upvotes, but downvotes on the replies drag it below the threshold ? Not a criticism. Just trying to clarify.
No, meaning we add up all the votes and if it is overall below the threshold it is hidden from the homepage stream. But it remains accessible to everyone with a link to it (such as via the email notification), and anyone participating further in it will still trigger notifications to anyone else that was participating in it.
Ok cumulative for the original post only. Not the replies. That way a valuable post doesnt get hidden on the main page due to thread of replies going off the rails.
Definitely not due to the replies‘ votes, though I think a side thread being downvoted a lot (cumulatively) should hide those replies by default and let those that are interested expand them to view if desired.
Cumulative as it pertains to the original post. As I understand it, comments and replies don't effect the original post, only votes on the original post itself. An example being if the original post gets 10 upvotes and less than 12 downvotes, but replies within the post get 50 downvotes, the original post is not effected. If the original post gets 10 upvotes and more than 12 downvotes it is…
Tom, first and foremost, one thing that I wasn't expecting was the prompt response on the support side….props for that definitely…. and clearly you are aware of some of the flaws of the algorithm, it still only takes 2….. 2 “unhappy” people to take down another persons post….whether its upvoted 1 time or a thousand times, why does it take simply 2 unhappy people to remove a post that a thousand…
He did say in the post that 1000 upvotes and 1002 downvotes would remove it too. but 1000 up and 1001 down would not remove it. There is no way voting could stay that close within 2 votes. Once it is off the feed how can it get upvotes? LOL, I think they will fix it after you brought it to their attention.
It doesn’t take 2 unhappy people. As I stated above, if 1000 people vote it up it takes 1002 voting it down to hide it from the stream. As stated above we will continue to look at ways to improve it, but I can tell you that with 25 years experience running automotive communities, there must absolutely be a way for people to help moderate the content. The issues we need to address are: -…
Tom, Thank you for providing the support that you do. I honestly was very surprised to have gotten such a prompt response yesterday, even with it being later in the evening. I want to say that sorry if I caused you some grief or stress, I definitely wasn't trying to do so, and being what the situation was I know my mindset was probably not the clearest and than just becomes harder to interpret…
No problem, we do appreciate the feedback and we've got some good ideas in the works to help alleviate some of these pain points. Have a great weekend everyone! 🙏
In light of current events: “Removing Parlor, freedom of speech being sensor’d & eliminating opposing political social media accounts,” it is unfortunate IF that type of “removing” behavior transitions to DN. “Removing a post“ because a person “doesn’t like it” is a violation of freedom a speech! Mr. Sadel, I’ve read & watched many of your posts/videos. There is no logical explanation…
thank you James, and yes I had decided to “share” this on here because I thought it was cool to show how to fix a bad acting pcm and verify all else is working properly for a temporary time to get the vehicle mobile. I sat for hours and looked over all parts of the system to make sure that what I was doing was a good way to prove me telling the customer that not only was the bcm causing pats…
Sorry, freedom of speech only applies to government censoring or speaking in public areas. It is perfectly legal for any business to censor or restrict speech on their platform any way they want.
I doubt “censoring” applies here. It's not a post about anything illegal, off topic, political etc. I have no doubt, like many forums, it is simply an automated attempt to improve quality on the home page. Unfortunately automated systems cause unintended results. I have been on other professional forums where they had to switch to a combo automatic and manual system, and user control, for…
Sadel, I always enjoy the videos you share. Please don't be discouraged to share on YouTube. Maybe it was down voted because of safety or liability reasons. Maybe in the titles and more direct statements in the beginning of the video, clearly state this is not a recommended practice or repair. Protect yourself from liability because you never know who watches these in YouTube. Hopefully Scott…
Thank you Billy, I appreciate that. Believe me, the liability factor had definitely been thought of long and hard. As I do with all work I perform or anything I put out. I would never present anything that would cost me anything in liability, I own and operate my own shop, all from the ground up with no help. I have more to loose than just a post if I were to do anything that was not safe or…
I too have always found validation in your posts and case studies…PLEASE keep up the good work. Thank you for all your efforts. Kindest regards.
thank you, I will try to continue to do so… I had began to do so in the first place thinking this could be a place to share “cool stuff" for like minded individuals… it was just very discouraging after this experience , and made me wonder if there were any other outlets that weren't this “childish” with the voting system, that fact that there is even a voting system to remove your post was eye…
Never really agreed with the “Thumbs up -Thumbs down” concept...I think it alters peoples motivations. You have done a great job putting out “cool stuff” for others to learn from. I hope this won't discourage you from continuing on your mission, our industry needs all the help it can get…and I suspect DN will work quirk this out.
2 down votes seems a bit low for an auto-remove of a post. If I think back to the other website, there would be lots of posts disappe… as people argued over stuff. LOL I would not classify that as a proper repair. If the PCM has a bad circuit, replace the PCM. However, over the years as mechanics, we have had to modify things just to get it working. When that PCM is obsolete, what will the…
As stated by others, this algorithm will see improvement and refinement with time. I might suggest that the sheer volume of responses from unique individuals, along with the time frame they occurred in, and the the number of new posters or seldom posters, could be a valuable consideration and carry weight in the calculation. This string being a perfect example. Controversy is good, and getting…
Sadel I am sorry to see your post was removed! This is definitely concerning to me and makes me wonder about site content and gaming issues, I had not understood DN was working this way previously…. You appear to be providing good useful content to this site regularly, making a demonstration post takes time and effort it's hard to believe it only takes 2 down votes to throw away any ones…
Thanks Bill, I appreciate that, and yes I definitely was unaware of it until it happened, definitely was surprised. None the less, I will try to keep posting hopefully.
Just to be clear, the post was never removed. It’s still right where it’s always been. The system stopped showing it in the homepage stream when it went below -1. Anyone that received the notification for it could still view and participate and vote it back up if needed. It‘s been voted back above the -2 threshold and is now visible again in the homepage stream.
Welcome to the world of Socialism! Get ready as the next administration will be deplatforming many in this new strange world! No more freedom of speech!
Now I am getting “unprofessional and inappropriate” marks again. Oh what it must be to hold the power of the Judge. To be but a GOD! This is why I will never buy a paid subscription, if I say the wrong thing, I get voted off the island and lose my money!
You may be overstating the power of a downvote, as you can see both of your replies are still accessible (though I think by default we’ll be hiding replies that get cumulatively negative votes, while giving people a way to read them if desired). Obviously it’s your choice not to pay for a subscription, but the reasoning you provided here seems suspect, as we’ve only had to remove one member in…
Thats likely because you made a post with a political bent on an automotive forum. I didnt downvote but i can sure as heck see why others did. Totally off topic and political.
I do disagree with the “filtering” of the post and I was probably the initial downvote. I disagree with the fix, but understand there are sometimes situations that require these type of workarounds. Bypassing ANY safety system in a vehicle should be a last resort. Would bypassing an Airbag component with a resistor to turn the SRS light off if a new component was not available be acceptable?
You keep referring it to as “safety” system and it's just simply the starter circuit. I didn't mess with airbag safety system, I didn't mess with braking system, I didn't mess with steering system, I didn't mess with fuel system. All I did was “simply” have the key, when placed in the ignition switch by the driver and physically turn it to the furthest position in the lock cylinder to initiate…
Put the truck in drive and crank the engine. If it cranks it has bypassed the safety system of Park/Neutral position being required to crank the engine.
Ok Chris, I'll give you that…. IF it truly were to crank than ok, I will see why then you are calling it that than. For me, it's just not where the thought of that situation ever occurring had gone, again its not too often where one would try to crank it at the point where not in park or neutral, but obviously I'm sure can happen, I didn't check it like that, so I'm not sure. I welcome your…
This is supposed to be a professional forum where professional techs and shop owners come for help and to share information/ideas. When you joined you agreed to follow specific rules. Posting without testing, without vehicle information and posting unsafe or illegal procedures is not professional. I volunteer a portion of my free time to help other professional techs solve problems. I also use…
Hello Sadel, After reading through all of this and watching your YouTube video titled: “2013 F150 no crank, how to bypass fix a bad PCM” the genesis of all this noise stems from the demonstration of what is in my opinion an unprofessional and unsafe repair. [Link to your original post] DN was founded on the following mission: “to connect professional technicians to enable successful repair of…
Understood Sott. Based on the professional guidelines that are out there for our field, I have concluded what is deemed an unprofessional and unsafe “repair” and “fix." Is that what I had set out to do? No, it was not. I made the mistake to not ask myself what would happen if the vehicle were to be cranked in other than park or neutral?? It was a question I missed. Yes, for me at that time and…
Sadel, Thank you for your response. This is part of the process and the best part of networking with fellow, like-minded professionals in pursuit of professionalism. Life is full of lessons and I've had plenty of mistakes from which I've learned from. Thanks again for your contributions here, it was just a few weeks ago I shared your BMW oil filter cap post with one of my techs who was…
Thank you Scott, yes definitely life lessons always learned I will say for sure. Thanks also for sharing that BMW repair, I will try to continue to contribute here , just in better form.
Sadel, Work arounds for failed processes and unavailable parts will ALWAYS have a place in our industry. We just need to be careful that the modification can not cause a safety related issue. My comments on airbag bypassing was from personal experience of a modification done by a used car dealer to keep the cost of repairing the car down with total disregard for the future owner of the…
Chris, Boy you aren't kidding, that felt more like a typhoon! No worries on it all, “its all good.” In a way I thank you and appreciate it, oddly enough….. Helps train the brain when you get questioned. And yeah it did get a little discouraging there for a minute but I did manage to hang on, and yes I do hope to continue to share stuff on here and hope to not disappoint some more in the…
I forwarded this post to him and hope he follows up. We have all had those mentors that make us who we are today.
Sadel- FYI I was the other downvote. I genuinely like your content, but I found that particular thread was unprofessional and disagreed with it.(for all of the reasons listed by Scott Brown) I still disagree with it, however I think the threshold for downvoting should be higher.
Thanks Rudy, yes, the voting functions will continue to evolve. When one does apply his or her vote, they are also asked to add a “tag” to help illustrate further the reasoning for the vote. In the future, we plan to use the various reasons to help shape vote weighting. E.g. Disagree downvotes should not cause the message to get hidden, where as others might.