There's something happening here…
In the recent post's an individual asked for help with a misfire problem on a vehicle, the diagnostic process seems to involve a lot of parts swapping and diagnostic guesses, with no testing data or specifics about the problem given. In response several people asked for more data and information so we can help direct this person better, the idea being “teach a man to fish….."
Others gave silver bullets “give the man a fish….”
Others offered less desirable answers, telling this individual to get a scope and learn to use it wanting this person to perform in cylinder pressure testing along with pressure pulse sensor testing.
This is the same problem I noticed within IATN, we have individuals who understand the values of education and knowledge and these people are constantly learning and willing to help better our fellow members and ourselves. Our discussions are criticised for being to theory heavy, our methodology impracticable, we spend too much time solving problems, “why use a scope when I can use a hammer” and on and on it goes.
We have individuals who just want a magic answer the silver bullets and YouTube solutions, they don't want theories or necessarily understanding “just tell me the next part to try next”.
We have individuals who don't seem to understand that if a technician has only a “guess and change” understanding what makes you think that they could find the problem with an oscilloscope?
We all have to keep in mind that our fellow members range from newer technicians still learning, to people who hold engineering and other advanced degrees who have been in the industry for decades. We are a very diverse group in many ways and we are living in increasing difficult times. So I ask all of us, please, before you post ask yourself “is this really helpful ?"
Let's all remember that it is easier to raise a finger then to reach down and lend a hand.
I propose adding additional topics of discussion:
Theory and operation
Board level electronics and programming
Engineering discussions ( let's learn from the expertise that is here )
ADAS
I also would like to see a better and easier “quick search function” let those just wanting to data mine or get statistical data another way to do so.
Thank you all
Craig …
Known issues should also come with tests to prove those parts failed. These targeted testing options are much more useful, even if they are based on common failures. For a simple example: Late 90's Ford with P0401 - Throw a DPFE at it, no. Monitor DPFE data, if above 1.5V Key on engine off the reading is out of range, unplug sensor reads 5V, short sensor ground to Signal wire if goes to 0V…
I agree, but I also know individuals who won't go that far. I think that every SI platform now has statistical data and targeted testing.
Even if the wiring was not tested prior to sensor replacement at least a failed pid reading could aim those silver bullets .
My input eh…. A couple of tarnished old pennies on a good day.
There's very good points made. Moving forward as an industry, we need to educate ourselves in how these systems work. I've always found that if you understand the system , trouble shooting comes naturally. Sometimes fixing cars and earning a paycheck for the shop and tech has to come first, learning how it works has to be left for another day. I've seen too many techs here and on IATN asking…
Michael thanks for the input, I have a friend who works at a shop that supplies it's technicians with Mitchell On Demand, Alldata and Identifix, what gets used Google and YouTube, I don't get it myself. Plus what would a customer think if they saw the person working on their car looking at a YouTube video on how to fix it? Not confidence inspiring at all.
Google and you tube can be very good resources if you know how to use them correctly. Having a video of how someone else removed interior trim pieces when the OEM site fails to give a understandable description of the process is priceless! I look up pictures of tone rings and other parts on google. Very valuable when the OEM only supplies a poor drawing of one! If the shop is using google and…
No your title “There's something happing here”, first line of the song “For what it's worth” by Buffalo Springfield 1966.
I know the song, was just appraising the value of the post :)
I agree with your sentiments but also cannot forget some employees may be under the gun to get cars out, possibly even stop troubleshooting this problem car a to knock a brake job on b etc. it may not always be there fault they can’t theorize or spend an Exorbitant amount of time with scopes.
I have been in the industry for decades in many roles and I understand that issue completely. But conversely if you really don't understand how something really works you will always be guessing won't you ? And what happens when the diagnostic process is complicated by a bad new part? I believe most every oscilloscope user here can diagnose certain issues with accuracy the first time while…
I agree with much of what you said Craig. Even with technology, the technician has to have a solid understanding of cause and effect to do a complete diagnosis. Our technology can help quite a bit, but in the end, there are still a variety of conditions that will create a misfire. We can help isolate if it is a misfire with fuel or without fuel, which can help point to an injector issue, or if…
That's why I have a WPS500 and several pressure pulse sensors, in the cylinder, intake, tailpipe, crankcase all at once, technology can be a beautiful thing indeed.
May be that I'm not looking in the right spot, but I don't see any guidelines for posting help requests like the “other” site that had very reasonable guidelines which the powers that be there refused to enforce. I would personally be in favor of those types of guidelines here…as long as there was enforcement.
I have come to the conclusion there are mechanics / technicians that are working primarily for their paycheck and don't really have an interest in how things actually work. They put in minimal effort & hope for the best and if that fails pass it along to the unfortunate customer. I work w/ guys that will ask my thoughts on particular problems and I attempt to give an all encompassing…
All those in possession of a flame suit raise your hand. Perhaps we could require with the help request basic data fields that must be checked off or data supplied to get the request to post, might be difficult to do though. We have some brilliant individuals here perhaps a dynamic non vehicle logic driven flow chart application.
I agree on teaching fellow technicians ”how to fish”. That being said it would be great to hace two sections for this network. One could be for teaching technical processes and how systems operate. The other would be just as it is, like minded techs who have a issue that another tech may have come across. Most of us that have worked at a dealership would call it technical support, “Which the…
Craig, Interesting post, here are my two cents, whatever that is worth. :-) Whatever you fill this forum with is what it will become. If you fill it with posts that contain no information and no testing, followed with replies that are full of silver bullets and random guesses then that is what you will have. If that is all you expect from this forum then you will be happy here with like…
Eric, I agree with you, scope issue aside :) here's the question then how can we get necessary information in the first post?
We could make training videos or posts detailing proper the proper ways to make a help request post. If a person posts improperly we then just post the video as a link! I have been known to leave out important details by accident. I think we all have at some point. If we can start to compile the required criteria for help request posts hopefully one of us here can combine all of it into a video…
Jeff a link back to a video or some sort of explanation of expected data is a great idea. Perhaps a generic template item checked [compression test] the next field would appear prompting a value or values, or a brief explanation code X, tested part X, replaced part X with new OEM part. The problem I have with this is people will input incorrect data and lead others down the wrong path. Nothing…
I have attached a checklist guide that really helped when our new Ford 6.0's came off warranty. IMO it worked better than a flow chart. Now if a checklist could be done for individual gas systems, forums aside, I think it would be beneficial to direct techs. Example for misfire : Visual inspection , code scan (peek @ fuel trims while you are there for those pesky vacuum leaks), Relative…
Craig, I used to be a scope everything guy, now I use faster methods when I know they will provide me with the correct answer. I still use a scope when I need to see network communications and when I have to compare signals to other signals like crankshaft to camshaft sensors to verify timing. The quality scan tools of today are much better than the older ones and can gather and display data…
Ohhh!! If only I knew what all the acronyms were (In spelled out words) and their meaning all of my test equipment would be seldom used (scopes and such). I would be a gazillionaire !!! For now I will keep learning and counting pennies till I get there. I believe in scopes. It allows us to see and verify electricity and pressures. They will help you understand the data. Seeing is believing.
Proper information, scopes, and acronyms oh my! In my opinion this site is basic, simple, and quick to use. I think that was the main building blocks for this site. I like this site for those exact reasons. I think having a required check list of some kind will defeat the purpose. No matter what information that has been posted, there could be videos and pictures and several paragraphs…
Jeff, same problem here, multiple scope owner and user. I agree most people just don't and won't get the benefits of using that level tool, it's a shame, most guys don't own or even know how to use a multimeter some can't even comprehend a bulb test light. All I know and I have warned many that it's not going to get easier for them, people need to realize cars are more computers than machines…
Agreed. Less and less every year are things mechanical. Unless they make a new form of communication protocal and bus layout scopes will always be faster than scanners!
Not only that but if you learn how to use the trigger functions, OoooEeee….set the scope up on that stalling vehicle and go do something else, let the scope tell you what went away :). Plus we can find carbon and other mechanical issues inside the engine WITHOUT teardown imagine that. And that skill is becoming increasingly important as engines are becoming very finicky with oil quality and fuel…
Can I join AAAA and make it official!!! LOL
I agree with trying to help. I'm actually going around to local shops and trying to get something like a Diagnostic group that would meet every month or two to help each other learn the latest diagnostic procedures. I'm not doing this to make money, only to help techs learn. We need to help each other.
Vern, I applaud your efforts and agree with your sentiment I hope you can make it work. In that spirit, I worked a couple of years teaching for CTI. As well as the state of Indiana emissions program among other things. If you want help with materials, scope patterns, idea's or a individual to bounce idea's off feel free to contact me and I will help however I can. Good luck Craig
Craig, it would be wonderful if we could do what Vern suggests in the Chicagoland area. It could be a group of us to have diner and BS. It can be to look at a nice new rental car or a problem vehicle. All I know is that I miss interacting with people that know the same and most of the time more than I do. All this virtual stuff just doesn’t do it!
Jeff, I was thinking that myself we just need a shop with room, a big whiteboard, chairs and tables and some like minded individuals and some basic ground rules. For me to get to you is a total PITA but if we have people willing to learn I am still willing to teach, I would give it a go.
I would totally come out towards you. It wouldn’t really need to be a training event more of a collaboration style event. All of us diagnosticians I’m sure can contribute something at some point. We would need a shop, a dry erase board, and maybe a projector or large TV so we can have laptops with a external monitor! having 3 to 5 guys all collaborating on one vehicle would be very cool! Maybe…
Jeff, is the number on your Facebook account a good number to reach you at? If we are still wanting to plan something it would be easier to do with more direct communication.
224 and a bunch of zeros and twos with a 7 thrown in! Yup. Thats the business number. Call me anytime!
Thanks. When I have more time to work on this I will definitely keep you in mind. Have a great day.
You know, I retired last week because of the core of this discussion. The last job, not at …, a shop that I won’t name here, I had I worked as Diesel technician and a diagnostician for gasoline drivability and electrical. They also wanted me to teach the other techs what I knew. I worked with about 8 other techs They did not want to learn. Not one of them had ever heard the term…
Jeff, glad to hear that your blood pressure is down, nothing to play with. I agree with pretty much everything stated, our industry is in serious trouble, I figured that out very early in my career I was only working for a few years before I was handed all the diagnostic work. I realized then the 80/20 rule. Mechanical work is 20 percent inspection 80 percent actual work. Diagnostics 80 percent…
I was thinking about starting a class or two. I have the space and the equipment. Not interested in making any money, just enough to cover the cost. but until I figure that out, everything I own is paid for and my monthly bills are paid for before I get out of bed for longer than I’ll probably live. So for now I’m focused on making amends to my wife for all the years my career came first. But I…
Good luck with the classes. I have found that most techs won‘t come unless made to by their employer, and few of these will make them. I have taught for years and it is a struggle to get techs to attend. It takes full time people working all day to fill a class. Constant calling, emailing, etc just to get enough to make a class worthwhile.
So I’m finding out, my initial feelers have revealed that even if I make it free, there’s very little interest, which is a crying shame! But what did I expect? I am in South Carolina lol! Most guys here just want to build race cars and be Ricky Bobby 🤣🤣🤣
Jeff and Craig you scare the hell out of me but reinforce what I suspect when I call on our shops on behalf of DRiV. We offer free training LnLs Lunch and Learns with the Garage Guru Vans. It is difficult to get a shop to take an hour out of the day to update and enhance their knowledge. And we even will buy lunch. Yes you may get a 5 minute commercial about our products but we need to pay the…
Don’t be scared. I retired 6 months before I hit 50! Rocking chairs, sunsets and fishing poles and as bad as the industry has gotten it still afforded me that! i don’t know if it would’ve been the same anywhere else but here in the south, a place to work where you can sleep at night is hard to find lol and you’re right, we have become as technologically advanced as the medical profession and…
Good one!! He's got us there. But we can always bring it back to life!!!!! LOL
Rick, no fear needed, this disabled old war horse doesn't move fast enough for concern. But if you reach out to Mr Morgan I have no issues including him in this, the more intellect at the table the better. As far as a Chicago area network, I have not heard of it.
The lack of desire to learn is something I've seen my whole (short) career in auto repair. I became most aware of it when I worked at the Ford dealer and went to their training classes. The number of guys who couldn't do even the most basic testing with a volt meter blew my mind. These guys were not new to the trade, most were 5-10+ years in the field and couldn't check voltage drop, heck, they…