2011 Mustang GT intermittent cam position codes

David Mobile Technician California Posted   Latest  
Updated
Electrical
2011 Ford Mustang GT 5.0L (F 99F) 6-spd (6R80)
P0365 — Camshaft Position Sensor "B" Circuit Bank 1
P0369 — Camshaft Position Sensor "B" Circuit Intermittent Bank 1
P0390 — Camshaft Position Sensor "B" Circuit Bank 2
P0394 — Camshaft Position Sensor "B" Circuit Intermittent Bank 2
P0022 — "A" Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Retarded Bank 2
P0300 — Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0305 — Cylinder 5 Misfire Detected
P0306 — Cylinder 6 Misfire Detected
P0308 — Cylinder 8 Misfire Detected

It looks like a mess I know. 

This car sat outside abandon for 5 years before I got it. It had a vicious rod knock that was fixed along with bearings timing set oil pump etc. 

I've been trying get the IM monitors ready for smog. particularly the O2 sensors which have proven difficult to ready. 

The car runs great, and has plenty of power, no codes and no pending codes. Then 0390 and 0394 invariably show up, this will further devolve in to a CEL with 0390 and 0394, when this occurs I loose 5,6&8 cylinders. Every once in a while it will show 0390 and 0394 exh cam on bank 1. I'll begin to baby it home and about a mile down the road, the engine wakes back up, no knocking no missing plenty of power.. like it never happened in the first place, then a mile later back to running poorly.

I've poured over the harness and inspected all of it and not found any issues. 

What I have done so far. 

  • All CPS have been cleaned.
  • New B2 Sensor B installed. 
  • All grounds checked and cleaned. 
  • PCM harness checked and cleaned 

My scanner is older snap on Solus and cannot graph sensors. 

When I disconnect the B2 sensor B connector I do not get codes showing up, no CEL. 

I pretty sure I need a new PCM.

I'm just looking for any other tips before I pull the trigger on a new PCM. 

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Jeffrey Mobile Technician
Illinois
Jeffrey
 

Chase your P0022 code. Ford will set CMP codes when timing is way off. Easiest way to explain is the PCM is looking for CMP sensor at a certain place compared to CKP. When the PCM doesn’t see it in that place it sets CMP circuit codes. So example would be CMP signal would happen 5 teeth past the missing tooth on the CKP reluctor on a good vehicle, yours happens lets say 15, PCM doesn't see it…

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Philip Educator
California
Philip
 

Jeff, what about all those circuit codes? I've always taught that the circuit codes are the first thing to fix. If the signals have a problem, how can you trust the P0022 code for correlation? I would be scoping the sensors and watching to see if I'm losing anything when it sets those circuit codes.

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Jeffrey Mobile Technician
Illinois
Jeffrey
 

Fords will set CMP circuit codes when the signal is not occurring at the right time! I would need to see if I have any screen shots of that! I don’t know if the PCM is programmed to look for a CMP pulse in a very narrow window and if not in that window then there is no CMP pulse or if the PCM does see it but its not at the right time so it sets a circuit code cause it can’t make sense of whats…

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Philip Educator
California
Philip
   

Jeff, I can see it setting performance codes for the sensors when the tooth count is wrong. Those are circuit codes, per Ford. They should set only for electrical faults. Not saying it can't be a mistake on the part of Ford, but I'd be looking at the circuit codes for the sensors long before worrying about correlation. Ford service information can be found on motorcraftservice​.​com…

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Jeffrey Mobile Technician
Illinois
Jeffrey
 

I’ll try and see if I can build a case study on Ford VCT CMP circuit codes setting due to valve timing. Look up Ford diagnostic of a P0741 I believe. If I have the code correct its for a TCC lockup. 2005 Taurus. Ford factory diag had me looking at circuit faults when its a TCC performance issue. Its automotive, nothing is perfect!

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Chris Technical Support Specialist
New York
Chris
   

There are several TCC DTC's out there. Be careful as some are electrical circuits and some are hydraulic circuits. The 05 Taurus is not a great example of the DTC description. Pulling from another vehicle I was working with (2019 MKC): P0740 Torque Converter Clutch Solenoid Circuit/Open TCC solenoid electrical faults DTC P0743 may set, CLEAR the DTC. If DTC P0740 returns, GO to Pinpoint Test…

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Damon Technician
Florida
Damon
 

I also think a good place to start would be to check oil pressure as well as scope your cam/crank correlation.

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David Mobile Technician
California
David
 

Agreed, I'm going to check these tomorrow.

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Sean Technician
Colorado
Sean
 

Agree with this, get a good oil pressure reading and look at what runs off oil pressure (vvt, tensioners, etc). I've had these codes and symptoms on multiple VVT vehicles for oil pressure issues and sticking/failing/clogged actuators and phasers. I am leaning away from rebuilding engines with rod knock or cam/crank issues because the clearances and specs are so precise on these newer engines…

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Jeff Technician
South Carolina
Jeff
 

Monitor vvt error pids or vvt desired vs actual during symptom. Could be carbon buildup, could be cam phaser not locking, could be vvt solenoid or it could be a timing chain tensioner on that bank failing, it is most likely not a failing pcm

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David Mobile Technician
California
David
 

Good point, It could be a phaser or a tensioner.

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Ray Diagnostician
Ontario
Ray
 

I think this 2013 F-150 5.0 cmp, ckp sync is the same as the 2011 Mustang 5.0 In the first capture, CH A COP1, CH B CKP, CH C B1 EXHAUST, CH D B2 EXHAUST. The second capture is CH A COP1, CH B CKP, CH C B1 INTAKE, CH D B2 INTAKE.

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David Mobile Technician
California
David
 

I've read that F150 thread and that's what makes me lean towards a ECM. What scope setup are you using?

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Ray Diagnostician
Ontario
Ray
 

I am using a Pico scope.

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Richard Technician
New York
Richard
 

I notice bank 2 uses VR sensors while bank 1 uses hall effect. I wonder if he has a faulty alternator giving off a lot of AC voltage. I have seen that on some F series trucks.

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Ray Diagnostician
Ontario
Ray
 

If the AC ripple looks excessive, he could disconnect the alternator.

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Blair Diagnostician
Arizona
Blair
 

I would try flashing PCM back to stock check for new codes. Re set cam crank sync if it has the function. Possible vehicle was tuned and has aftermarket camshaft?

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David Mobile Technician
California
David
 

I don't have the capability to flash the PCM I'd have to take it to Ford. This mustang has no mods of any kind.

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Timothy Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Timothy
 

Usually takes a couple of key starts before it'll flag a code for the sensor, but I believe you've got a timing issue. The CMP codes will not cause it to run on a single cylinder on bank 2, and drop the other three. That appears to be a mechanical issue to me. A scope shot of a couple of the affected cylinders, while misfiring will tell you a bit more about what is actually going away. Many of…

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David Mobile Technician
California
David
 

Ok cool, I'll take it out and check the VCT when it occurs. Could the CKPS be the cause, its a reluctor type. I know they either work or don't. But could the signal be getting weak has it heat soaks. But then it'd fire off a CKPS code.

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Jeff Technician
South Carolina
Jeff
 

Could be, easy to check with a scope, all it needs is 200 to 300 mv for the computer to count it as a switch

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Jeffrey Mobile Technician
Illinois
Jeffrey
 

The PCM has told you the area to check! VCT pids if you have them will be your best friend! I have yet to be burned by false VCT data on a Ford (don’t know others experience). The 5.4L oil pressure issue is fairly easy to get a grasp on; if engine comes down to idle and runs really bad, rev it up slightly and let it come back to idle a couple of times. Your boosting oil pressure to try and…

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David Mobile Technician
California
David
 

Hi Jeff, this is all great info. I'm going to spend some time on my scanner tomorrow. I can see and command VCT so I should be able to duplicate the problem. I like you idea with the VCT solenoids and tapping them, on the next drive I will do this. Correct me if I am wrong. The VCT solenoids only have 2 terminals, this tells me that these have no feedback loop since they are solenoids. That…

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Timothy Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Timothy
 

Just because the solenoids have only two terminals means nothing, as far as monitoring the circuits is concerned. Many OEMs will set P0010/11 codes for solenoids that have electrical issues, as well as timing issues. Just checked a Malibu that had a P0010. The cam solenoid had high resistance. It's only a two wire solenoid. Ford/Chrysler and several other OEMs do the same thing. Jeff is…

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Chris Technical Support Specialist
New York
Chris
   

If you want to prove the P0022 is monitored for codes, unplug the solenoid and run KOEO and KOER ondemand tests. It should trigger the fault. The PCM will monitor the solenoid command circuit for ground when commanded, and voltage when off.

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Rick Owner
Idaho
Rick
 

I don't know on your 2011 but I have had two that had cam codes due to a bad alternator. Mid 2000's. Somewhere in CAN they are on the same frequency? I'm not as smart as most of these guys but that's what fixed mine.

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Philip Educator
California
Philip
 

Rick, Yes, you are correct. There can by interference from a bad alternator diode and it will set circuit codes for cam sensors in the older Fords, particularly P0344. I haven't had a post -2009 vehicle (the year Ford and everyone else was supposed to stop setting circuit codes for correlation codes which it did in earlier OBD systems) set a circuit code for the alternator diodes, but it is…

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David Mobile Technician
California
David Update
   

Alrighty, I took the car out with my scanner. I was able to look at all CMP actual position at once while driving. All CMPs were responding except bank 1 intake cam. Once the PCM saw something was wrong all the CMPs flat-lined as shown in the picture. When the PCM fires off P0390 and P0394 pending. All cam position data flat-lines and I am not able to see any data. With the car sputtering, I…

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Chris Technical Support Specialist
New York
Chris
 

Not sure how many pids you can monitor on that tool at once, but there should also be a VCT loop status pin (open/closed), desired cam angle, and difference from actual. I dont believe you lost the data, but the VCT system went into open loop (disabled) once the fault was triggered. I would focus on the actual, desired, difference pids for intake on both banks to compare. Have you tried jumping…

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Jeff Technician
South Carolina
Jeff
 

Correct, failure mode effects management defaults to ignoring the cam sensors, bank firing the injectors and disables vvt on most fords

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David Mobile Technician
California
David
 

Hi Chris, I am able to see all that data and you are correct, once it sees the fault. It was closed and went open once it saw the faults. I believe its a cam phaser at this point.

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Philip Educator
California
Philip
 

David, I don't know if you can wait and I'm pretty far from you in Hemet, but I would dearly love to research this problem before you tear it down. Please phone or text me at … if you would. I appreciate a shot at looking at the vehicle.

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Jeff Technician
South Carolina
Jeff
   

Those solenoids are low side controlled, clear the codes and check for power at the solenoid for the cam that didn’t respond and then jump the other side to ground at idle. If the solenoid and phaser is working you’ll know it, if nothing changes suspect the sensor or a trigger problem. Of course it could be a phaser not locking too, the vvt error pids will reveal that And no better test for the…

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David Mobile Technician
California
David Update
 

It seems that the intake cam is sluggish, I believe that the problem lies in the cam phaser. Attached are few screen shots of the cams. B2 intake cam is sluggish at best. I just got done swapping actuators and am going to test drive it now.

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Timothy Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Timothy
 

Actuators, or solenoids? Swapping actuators is a teardown, whereas the solenoid takes ten minutes.

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Sean Technician
Colorado
Sean
 

You can swap the actuators with the “wedge” tool without a tear down

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Timothy Owner/Technician
Wisconsin
Timothy
 

Still far longer than swapping solenoids.

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David Mobile Technician
California
David
 

Yes the phasers/actuators are next. I ordered a new Ford unit for the intake side and just got it in. What is this wedge tool you speak of? I am not looking forward to removing the timing cover.

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Sean Technician
Colorado
Sean
 

I'm not positive it will work on this engine but google “ford timing chain wedge”. It goes down into the timing cover and wedges the chain in the guides so you can take the phaser(s) off without removing the timing cover.

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Chris Technical Support Specialist
New York
Chris
 

When you have the valve cover off again before you pull the chains, pull the solenoid out and check to make sure there is oil flow to the Solenoid. If there is no oil, the solenoid can send pressurized oil to the Phaser.

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