VAG VVT Problems

Matt Owner Roxboro, North Carolina Posted   Latest  
Question
Driveability
2014 Volkswagen Jetta Comfort 1.8L (CPKA) 5-spd (0A4)
P000A - "A" Camshaft Position Slow Response Bank 1
P0300 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0001-10
P1528
Stall
Poor Idle

We inherited a Volkswagen that the VW dealership has had for over 3 months. Replaced the timing chains, repaired an oil leak, and ckp/cmp sensors. After scanning there are several VVT codes. The DTC that I could find info on was the P000A and there were misfires registered on every cylinder. The symptoms are a rough idle, runs good off idle while driving but will suddenly stall without much warning. Starts immediately after each stall event. Started with an rc test which showed nothing out of the ordinary. I remembered seeing a test on here for the cam, crank, vvt control voltage, and vvt current ramp. Was planning to do cam crank sync and decided this would be a good test for the actuator as well. This is my first time performing this and compared to the known good I reviewed I have some questions to make sure we dont miss anything in the test procedure. First attachment is the psd file for the test. Channel A is the CKP, channel B is the CMP, C is the VVT actuator voltage control back-probed at the solenoid, D is the VVT control current at the module(the clamp was oriented wrong so I flipped it with a math channel which is what is visible in the file). After capturing the data and reviewing compared to the known good that Ray shared on another site, It appears as if my cmp/ckp is off by one ckp toggle. My questions are more about the vvt voltage and current since this is the first time I have tested these. There is quite a bit of difference in the duty cycle between my capture and Rays known good. I can also see the amperage spike during the long ground periods in the duty cycle is that enough amperage that I should see pintle movement? Is the duty cycle high because the PCM is not seeing a shift in the CMP? Is the next step to manually ground the solenoid to see pintle movement? Also any info on the other codes would be helpful as I have not found much reference info for them. Thanks in advance for the help. 

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Stephen Technician
Gallatin, Tennessee
Stephen Default
 

I see the “shift” as about 1/2 a CKP so, about 3*. The interesting part is the at the current humps are spaced at 180CKP degrees. That would be 90* of CMP. Also the current humps are associated with a “noise”(?) burst on the CMP signal. The solenoid current humps agree with the long pulse width of voltage so the ECM is doing it on purpose. I’m wondering if the timing is off so, the ECM is…

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Matt Owner
Roxboro, North Carolina
Matt Default
 

Stephen thanks for the input. That was going to be my next step on Monday morning was to run an in cylinder and put the timing to bed for sure. I had the same thought on the ECM command time for the duty cycle. The aftermarket data pids for this car are a little different. There is a specified and actual for the vvt timing and from what I have read if it is more than 3-5* out there is some…

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Michael Owner/Technician
Montague, New Jersey
Michael Default
 

We recently had a 2015 Jetta GLS with similar issues. The timing chain had stretched and was replaced along with the guides and tensioner. We also replaced the intake cam and VVT valve. These are very sensitive to oil. Make sure the correct oil and filter are installed. We use Motul 5W-40 Xclean on these with a Mann or OEM filter. I also suspect the timing is off. You need the tools to set these…

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Matt Owner
Roxboro, North Carolina
Matt Default
 

The oil level, type, and filter are all verified. Oil was changed at the dealer when the timing chain was replaced. I did forget to add that after 3 months the dealer told him he needs a motor but he says they did not give him a clear answer as to why other than if he wants it fixed it needs a motor.

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JB Owner/Technician
Minneapolis, Minnesota
JB Default
 

If the dealer said that I would absolutely be checking the oil pressure. Make sure you read the factory repair manual regarding oil pressure testing. There's several checks necessary to verify if it's acceptable.

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JB Owner/Technician
Minneapolis, Minnesota
JB Default
 

I would also note that even if the customer states the oil was "changed at the dealer" it needs to be asked how often. If they only did it every 10k that's not good enough on any of the ea888 series engines. Maximum oil change interval I would ever recommend on these engine series is 5000 miles and only if using a high quality oil filter.

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Chris Diagnostician
Commack, New York
Chris Default
   

Good afternoon. I would like to start by saying I literally have a sign on my desk that says "scope all of the things!!!" However I think you may getting a little ahead of yourself. The code you are worried about is "slow response". The answer, or at least the test plan is in the description of the code. Your timing is dead on. Cool. Remember, the engine is using the oil as a hydraulic…

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Gail Technician
Raleigh, North Carolina
Gail Default
 

Do these have a screen in the oil passage for the solenoid? Or is the screen ON the end of the solenoid? Just something to look at.

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Matt Owner
Roxboro, North Carolina
Matt Default
 

Chris I agree 100%. Our first approach to 99% of VVT concerns is a BG EPR/MOA with factory oil and filter. This vehicle was towed in after being at the dealership for a timing chain repair and has had a running issue since. The oil on the stick was clean, the filter was oe, and oil level was dead on. It's definitely worth running the process to verify there is no prior build up in the oiling…

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Chris Diagnostician
Commack, New York
Chris Default
   

VW oil pressure switches are just that, switches. The only pid you will find, if available, is OK or NOT OK. Sorry man, but you will have to hook up a gauge and check manually. As far as the timing, I have a bunch of VW known goods I keep on my desktop. I'll include them here, they aren't mine and I will not take credit for them. VW is usually pretty good about having the crank sync notch line…

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Matt Owner
Roxboro, North Carolina
Matt Default
 

Thanks Chris. I watched your video this morning in the VW VVT system. Lots of great info there. I think the plan tomorrow will be flush and then pull the top cover for inspection. It's too easy to do a visual inspection on this one to justify not looking. I might try your phaser sweep test with the power probe just for some testing. Question on that test, in the demonstration it looked like you…

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Chris Diagnostician
Commack, New York
Chris Default
 

I put power and ground to it. I used the ground lead on the power probe, touched the tip of the probe to the other lead and checked for a green LED. This indicated that I had continuity through the solenoid. I then tapped the switch VERY QUICKLY to avoid damage to the solenoid.

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Ray Diagnostician
North York, Ontario
Ray Default
 

The first capture is the cmp to ckp 15 deg measurement before I grounded the old cam adj sol control wire. The second capture is the cmp to ckp 62 deg measurement when I grounded the old cam adj control wire at idle and the engine stalled. Try to get someone to hold the rpms up to increase the oil pressure to the phaser and to keep the engine from stalling.

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Ray Diagnostician
North York, Ontario
Ray Default
 

The P0001 looks like the Fuel Volume Regulator? The P1528 looks like the Cam Timing Adjuster Solenoid The first Gif is with the bad Cam Timing Adjuster Solenoid at a steady 1600 rpm, which has crazy frequency. The second GIF is with the Cam Timing Adjuster Solenoid disconnected.

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Matt Owner
Roxboro, North Carolina
Matt Default
 

Ray, I am glad you chimed in. I saw you post this a while back and thought about it when we started looking into this vehicle. Are you running this test at idle and a steady 1600 or does it only have value at 1600. My capture is at idle. It's your post repair test file that I found for a known good cmp/ckp comparison and that's what reminded me about seeing the VVT voltage and current. Can you…

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Ray Diagnostician
North York, Ontario
Ray Default
 

This is a capture at idle with the bad cam adj frequency. I increased the rpm to 1600 to look for cam advance. I jumped power and ground to the cam adj sol and I measured the full phaser cam advance. I'll post it later.

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Stephen Technician
Gallatin, Tennessee
Stephen Default
 

I notice that Ray’s Idle capture shows a similar pattern on the ECM pulse signal and solenoid current varying at 180* CKP. Except that the current dips instead of raising as it did on yours. The variance is not on the 1600RPM capture.

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Ray Diagnostician
North York, Ontario
Ray Default
 

This is a capture with the new cam adjuster solenoid volts and amps at idle.

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Randy Diagnostician
Glendora, California
Randy Default
 

Great Capture Ray

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Stephen Technician
Gallatin, Tennessee
Stephen Default
 

That’s almost like the tail wagging the dog. The ECM output to the solenoid, showed the variation in PW where the solenoid current varied. Yet, the ECM output stabilized when the solenoid was replaced. Right? So, was the ECM trying to correct the CMP/CKP variation but the solenoid was not able to stabilize it. I wonder if the association of the variation of solenoid current to camshaft position(…

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Matt Owner
Roxboro, North Carolina
Matt Default
   

So I had a chance to do an oil flush, hard test drive, and an oil pressure test. I also had a chance to re run the cam/crank with the VVT unplugged to check the base timing. From every file I can find, the timing looks off when I measure it. The first file is my psd capture. The second file is a jpeg of my measurement. The second jpeg is the comparison to the file shared by Chris above. I did…

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JB Owner/Technician
Minneapolis, Minnesota
JB Default
   

If anyone has been into this engine before the spur gear is likely not correctly installed. Any time the crank pulley is removed it must be done with a wrench, not an impact gun. And the bolt must be reinstalled immediately. If the spur gear is removed it must be inspected very carefully for damage and must be reinstalled correctly timed to the crankshaft snout and the crankshaft balancer must…

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Matt Owner
Roxboro, North Carolina
Matt Default
 

JB that's what I'm thinking has happened. The oil pressure was checked via info from identifix. Checked at the oil pressure switch by the filter. It was on the high side of spec but in spec. I will re check tomorrow just to see if there is a difference post oil flush/change. Uunplugging the vvt and checking base timing should eliminate an oil pressure/oiling/vvt timing issues as a variable, right?

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Stephen Technician
Gallatin, Tennessee
Stephen Default
 

I still read the difference between your captures and Ray’s at about 3*, advanced. I doubt that that can account for all of the roughness and misfire of the car. Also it isn’t coding for timing issues. An incylinder pressure capture should tell in the timing is off, indicating that the crank gear is out. An intake manifold pressure test would check for valve sealing issues. The complaint kind of…

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Bill Owner/Technician
Jackson, Michigan
Bill Default
 

Matt your cam/crank capture looks good compared to Ray Y. know good ??

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Ray Diagnostician
North York, Ontario
Ray Default
 

When measuring any cmp, ckp, measure from the cmp's toggle that is closest to the ckp's missing toggle. Your cmp to ckp is only out 4.7 crank degrees and each ckp toggle measures 6 crank degrees.

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Matt Owner
Roxboro, North Carolina
Matt Default
 

Ray I am asking this to verify my thought process. I measured from the first falling edge of the ckp gap to to 3rd gap for the 720. There were 116 toggles in that 720 which gave me 6.2 per toggle. When I measured my capture with vvt unplugged I measure 141.6 from the 0 point to the 1st falling edge cmp toggle to the right of 0. The comparison file I measure 134.2 using the same measuring points…

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Ray Diagnostician
North York, Ontario
Ray Default
 

I measure the cmp to ckp the fastest, the easiest and the most accurate way. Then I move on to diagnose the customer's complaints.

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Matt Owner
Roxboro, North Carolina
Matt Default
 

Thanks for the tip Ray.

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